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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:19:24 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

If you protested and complained about Bush, but are giving Obama a free ride for doing essentially the same thing, then I place you in the "hypocrite" and "selfish partisan" category. (Not necessarily "you" personally, Mike, but generically.)


When Bush invaded, I believed we were doing so based upon the theory of WMD. Who wanted a repeat of 9/11?

When the WMD theory was found out to be a lie, I protested. Not because we invaded, but because we were lied too in order to do so.

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:26:03 PM   
Sanity


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Are you suggesting that the WMDs in Libya have been verified?


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:28:33 PM   
Lucylastic


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Libya has been invaded by the US because of WMD?
colour me surprised


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:34:36 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Oh for God's sake!

How have conservatives been using the word liberal for the last few decades?

Have we really become this thin-skinned?


Im not here to argue this point. Want to argue it out, start a thread. I posted what I believed, why I believed it, and if you dont like it, thats on you.


So let me see if I have this straight, it is ok for conservatives to use liberal as a pejorative term but liberals aren't allowed to call neo-conservatives neo-cons?

Even though many prominent neo-cons refer to themselves by that term?

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:35:18 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Could it possibly be that sanity started the thread to further his own agenda?

If his agenda is to point out that most of the protest and complaints from the left were not really about Bush's policies (which Obama seems to have adopted wholesale), but about gaining political traction and destroying your nation for purely partisan political purposes, then his agenda is one that I support.

As has been pointed out, if you protest and complain because of your convictions (even if I disagree with them), then I would place you in the "honorable" category of politicians and protesters.

If you protested and complained about Bush, but are giving Obama a free ride for doing essentially the same thing, then I place you in the "hypocrite" and "selfish partisan" category. (Not necessarily "you" personally, Mike, but generically.)

There seems to be a gaping hole of silence from many, both here on the boards, in the media, and within the ranks of our "elected statesmen" who protested - sometimes violently - about Bush's actions, but are "ho hum" about Obama's actions and policies: which are basically the same as Bush's actions and policies.

("Ho hum"?  Hell, they are justifying and supporting those actions, now that it's Obama, and not Bush!)

This particular incident (the use of US military forces against a "sovereign nation") simply highlights who the partisans and hypocrites really are.

So, yes, Sanity's agenda is certainly worthy of discussion.  As are the actions, words and agenda of anyone engaged in the political realm.

Firm

This is mostly bullshit(no offense directed toward you Firm)...The bullshit lies in finding an analogy between Libya and Iraq.
Lets look at the differences .
1)Iraq was an invasion....the stated goal being the fictitious WMD....the actual goal being regime change and nation building(a charge specifically denied at the time)
2)Libya is the imposition of a NFZ....was there much dissent over the 12 years in which a NFZ was imposed after Gulf war 1.
3) Iraq...no populist uprising.....Libya a populist uprising
4) no call from the nonexistent popular uprising for international relief.....Libya's populist rebel forces begged for international help in the face of unrelenting air strikes by Qaddafi's air force...
5)Absence of lies to the American people...to the international community.
Do I need to continue?



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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:35:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Are you suggesting that the WMDs in Libya have been verified?



Since I posted that it was Bush who made the claim of WMD, I dont know why you would think I was referring to Libya. Are there such claims being made?

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:36:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Even though many prominent neo-cons refer to themselves by that term?


As I said before, start a seperate thread if you want this debate to continue.



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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:37:17 PM   
slvemike4u


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Sanity ,is Faux news reporting we have invaded?


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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:40:43 PM   
Sanity


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So, if we have multiple excuses and one of them doesnt quite pan out thats a war crime.

But, if we just start bombing them thats okay.

?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Are you suggesting that the WMDs in Libya have been verified?



Since I posted that it was Bush who made the claim of WMD, I dont know why you would think I was referring to Libya. Are there such claims being made?


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:42:49 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Video -
Dem Congressman: "We're In Libya Because Of Oil"

Article - OBAMA GHRAIB

Obamas a war criminal?

Thats what leftists would be screaming if this were a Republican president...




Sanity, you need to make up your mind.

Frankly, I agree it is all about oil, but you have been telling us for years about how the war in Iraq was really to liberate the people.

Nonsense then, nonsense now.

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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:46:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So, if we have multiple excuses and one of them doesnt quite pan out thats a war crime.

But, if we just start bombing them thats okay.


Sanity, at the time we invaded, if Bush had been honest, many would have supported him. But we would have wanted him out a hell of alot sooner.



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 3:59:30 PM   
Sanity


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Theres no evidence that Bush ever lied about anything, taz.

Theres just far left hyperbole. Wild eyed, fanatical, empty claims.


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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:01:59 PM   
Sanity


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Yes Ive been consistent. I was consistent then, and I am being consistent now.

What do you think the point that I am making is, I really dont think that you quite understand it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Sanity, you need to make up your mind.

Frankly, I agree it is all about oil, but you have been telling us for years about how the war in Iraq was really to liberate the people.

Nonsense then, nonsense now.



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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:07:01 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Even though many prominent neo-cons refer to themselves by that term?


As I said before, start a seperate thread if you want this debate to continue.



It's not worth a separate thread, but it was you who rose to Sanity's defense that the term was intended to denigrate and now you want to feign innocence?

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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:10:43 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Yes Ive been consistent. I was consistent then, and I am being consistent now.



quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Sanity, you need to make up your mind.

Frankly, I agree it is all about oil, but you have been telling us for years about how the war in Iraq was really to liberate the people.

Nonsense then, nonsense now.


What you should have said was.."What do you think the point that I am trying to  make is, I really dont think that you quite understand it."
By the way you are failing...miserably failing.
There is no equivalency....and no amount of posturing will make it so

Much like I just failed when I quoted you...I seem to have lost a line there...oh well,you know what you said.


< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 3/21/2011 4:12:42 PM >


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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:11:45 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Theres no evidence that Bush ever lied about anything, taz.

Theres just far left hyperbole. Wild eyed, fanatical, empty claims.




uh, here are a few he told.


quote:

a) "The smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud." Iraq didn't even have shitake mushrooms.

b) "Saddam would not let the inspectors in." Bush has now made this claim twice. It came as quite a surprise to the hundreds of U.N. inspectors that were in Iraq in 2003 and were told by the U.S. to get out or get bombed.

c) Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. All right, I cut them some slack on this one as EVERYONE thought that he still possessed some WMD capability. The difference is that no one else felt that Hussein was any sort of credible military threat to the rest of the region, much less the United States. And, by "no one" else, I mean C.I.A., the U.N. and anyone else not named Wolfowitz, Rice, Libby, Rumsfeld, Cheney or Pearle.

d) "We know exactly where they are." So said Rumsfeld shortly after the war ended. I wonder if he's shared that bit of information with his boss yet?

e) The laundry list. Both Bush in his 2003 State of the Union speech and Colin Powell at the United Nations read through a laundry list of horrors that was quantified down to the milliliter. Powell called these charges "facts" that were unassailable. Yet we have still not found a drop.

f) "We believe that, in fact, Saddam Hussein has reconstituted nuclear weapons." Dick Cheney said this on Meet the Press in 2003. Even as Bush and others were careful of going overboard, Dick "Goebbels" Cheney kept going for not just the Big Lie, but the Grandaddy of them all.

g) Drones that could attack the United States. True, if they were launched from Padre Island. The truth is that little Timmy down the block has a more sophisticated remote control airplane than Saddam did.

h) Yellow cake uranium. The Italian press thought those documents were fake. Let me repeat that: the ITALIAN PRESS thought they were forgeries!

i) We will be welcomed as liberators. Those are bullets, roadside bombs and RPGs, not roses fellas.

j) Imminent? Who said imminent? Well, Ari Fleischer, Donald Rumsfeld and others. But, apparently Bush never said the words himself. He just used every other phrase he could think of to scare the crap out of us. And, as a point of order, isn't it the Bush Administration? When someone is speaking for the administration, don't they speak for Bush?

k) Al Qaeda and Saddam had close ties. Well, both he and bin Laden are Sunni Muslims, they both have moustaches and, to quote Cliff Clavin, neither of them have ever been in my kitchen. They must be like brothers.

l) "We have found WMDs in Iraq." Bush and others have made this claim regarding an ever so dangerous weather tracking truck.

m) "They could have been destroyed by Saddam. Or moved out of the country." I know Bush doesn't read the papers or watch the news, but does he even listen to his own staff? David Kay, his hand-picked inspector, said there obviously weren't any weapons in the first place. But, what if Bush is right and they were moved, shipped out of the country? Well, then the whole purpose of the war -- to keep Hussein from giving his WMDs to terrorists -- was a failure. Well, George, which one is it?


The True Lies of George W. Bush




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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:12:16 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Theres no evidence that Bush ever lied about anything, taz.

Theres just far left hyperbole. Wild eyed, fanatical, empty claims.



quote:

In a speech before the World Affairs Council of Charlotte, NC, on April 7, 2006, President Bush stated that he "fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.


quote:

“So long as I think I’m doing the right thing, and so long as we can win, I’m going to leave our kids there because it’s necessary for the security of this country.”


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/apr/6/20060406-112119-5897r/

That "wish" has come to pass.

Even after being told repeatedly there was no WMD there by many sources, He finally admits there were none? Three years later?

You actually want me to buy that?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:22:28 PM   
Sanity


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You realize that anyone can make a web page right, jlf?

Make it say anything they want?

Sorry but when one reads a line such as "Dick "Goebbels" Cheney kept going for not just the Big Lie, but the Grandaddy of them all" the source loses all credibility.




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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:24:41 PM   
Lucylastic


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Of course he does, hes said the same thing twice in three or four days Tazzy, he will never believe it  ever


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RE: Impeachment? - 3/21/2011 4:25:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Oh for God's sake!

How have conservatives been using the word liberal for the last few decades?

Have we really become this thin-skinned?


Im not here to argue this point. Want to argue it out, start a thread. I posted what I believed, why I believed it, and if you dont like it, thats on you.


So let me see if I have this straight, it is ok for conservatives to use liberal as a pejorative term but liberals aren't allowed to call neo-conservatives neo-cons?

Even though many prominent neo-cons refer to themselves by that term?

I've had this discussion before:

Could we kindly cut the nazi/communist crap? - 9/2/2009 2:51:53 AM

But I could make the argument that "socialist" is a purely descriptive term.

It becomes a pejorative when it is meant as a pejorative. When it becomes commonly accepted as an insult, it becomes difficult to distinguish between a descriptive use, and a pejorative use.

Such as "neo-con", which in common political discussion (on these boards, for example) almost without exception, it is used in the pejorative sense.

Its like how some black people use the "n" word.  It's not insulting when they do it themselves, because it's not meant to be an insult.

If someone wishes to call themselves a "neo-con", then they are making a statement, as are the people who use the "n" word to describe themselves.  Just as "liberals" use the term to describe themselves, and it's not an insult.

If you fling the word "neo-con" in a discussion, however, I would generally interpret it as an intended insult on your part.

Firm

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