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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 3:50:56 PM

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quote:

subfever
Mankind needs to implement a system where the very concept of charity ultimately becomes obsolete, due to no need.

Lovely sentiment. I can't say I disagree with the aim.

Sadly humans don't do perfection very well. In fact, we don't do perfection at all. Never have. Never will.

Where does that leave us? We can aim for it in the full knowledge that we're never going to get there.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 4:53:28 PM

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quote:

Now that scares the hell out of me... It does the soul good to do something you don't have to do for another...

Yes, this is true. It is also true when we do things we don't have to do for the collective good; or perhaps somewhere in-between, such as today's charities.

quote:

If it were before the need then eventually we would think of it as an entitlement and forget the charity of the heart.. When bad times come again, which they always do, we will have forgotten how to be charitable... Just look at France as an example.

This line of thought is the result of lifelong conditioning to the current monetary-economic paradigm. It's hard to break outside of our conditioned boxes. However, try to project your thoughts to a generation or two after an egalitarian system has been implemented; where technology has eliminated scarcity and has provided for the basic needs of all people without the obligation of payment, servitude, or submission.

People now work together, on a volunteer basis, for the betterment of all humanity and the environment; instead of foolishly focusing their education and 40 years of working life to compete against others to extract enough money out of a system, which by its nature, had to be kept scarce enough in order to sustain its value.

Terms like entitlements, charities, politics, profit, and war have become obsolete within this new paradigm. Living within this new paradigm becomes humanity's new environmental conditioning, of course.

< Message edited by subfever -- 4/17/2011 5:01:48 PM >

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 4:59:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

subfever
Mankind needs to implement a system where the very concept of charity ultimately becomes obsolete, due to no need.

Lovely sentiment. I can't say I disagree with the aim.

Sadly humans don't do perfection very well. In fact, we don't do perfection at all. Never have. Never will.

Where does that leave us? We can aim for it in the full knowledge that we're never going to get there.

No, humans don't do perfection well.

However, wouldn't you agree that the relentless pursuit of perfection for the sake of humanity and environment is a worthy cause?

Okay, okay... I admit to borrowing Lexus' motto there...

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 6:36:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

subfever
Mankind needs to implement a system where the very concept of charity ultimately becomes obsolete, due to no need.

Lovely sentiment. I can't say I disagree with the aim.

Sadly humans don't do perfection very well. In fact, we don't do perfection at all. Never have. Never will.

Where does that leave us? We can aim for it in the full knowledge that we're never going to get there.

No, humans don't do perfection well.

However, wouldn't you agree that the relentless pursuit of perfection for the sake of humanity and environment is a worthy cause?

Okay, okay... I admit to borrowing Lexus' motto there...

For me, it's much more than a worthy cause - it's a highly desirable one. And impossibility has never been reason enough not to believe in something for some people - look at some of the various belief systems out there.

Let's not get too carried away in our enthusiasm. It's a pretty road but we'll never get to the end. However it's far from all bad news. It guarantees our creativity will be in demand for ever doesn't it?

And we do need to distinguish between solutions that impose sameness or uniformity and others that would be more viable. More a case of lots of little solutions than one big one ......

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 8:34:11 PM

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You are borrowing form others as well, arent you. The Nazis literally believed they were relentlessly pursuing perfection as you say.

Keep things in their proper perspective. Try and allow things to fall shy of perfect here and there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
No, humans don't do perfection well.

However, wouldn't you agree that the relentless pursuit of perfection for the sake of humanity and environment is a worthy cause?

Okay, okay... I admit to borrowing Lexus' motto there...

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 9:40:43 PM

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quote:

For me, it's much more than a worthy cause - it's a highly desirable one. And impossibility has never been reason enough not to believe in something for some people - look at some of the various belief systems out there.

Let's not get too carried away in our enthusiasm. It's a pretty road but we'll never get to the end. However it's far from all bad news. It guarantees our creativity will be in demand for ever doesn't it?

And we do need to distinguish between solutions that impose sameness or uniformity and others that would be more viable. More a case of lots of little solutions than one big one ......

I believe that within the future paradigm I've described, creativity would flourish like never before.

Of course, I've gotten way ahead of myself here. Right now, all we can do is take baby steps to raise the collective consciousness of the masses, who suffer from decades of conditioning.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 9:55:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

wouldn't you agree that the relentless pursuit of perfection for the sake of humanity and environment is a worthy cause?

The pursuit of perfection of what, precisely?

The pursuit of perfection in art, craftsmanship, skill, etcetera, is one thing. Pursuit of the perfection of humanity is hubris. The real world never ceased to disappoint Marx, and it can be counted upon to disappoint any other non-reality based utopian vision that ignores human nature.

K.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 9:59:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

tweakabelle
And we do need to distinguish between solutions that impose sameness or uniformity and others that would be more viable. More a case of lots of little solutions than one big one ......

I believe that within the future paradigm I've described, creativity would flourish like never before.

Of course, I've gotten way ahead of myself here. Right now, all we can do is take baby steps to raise the collective consciousness of the masses, who suffer from decades of conditioning.

Sometimes, the steps aren't that big even though they can be radical.

The shift from say, monoculture in agriculture, to permaculture* systems is one example of the change in thinking I'd like to see.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 10:49:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

wouldn't you agree that the relentless pursuit of perfection for the sake of humanity and environment is a worthy cause?

The pursuit of perfection of what, precisely?

The pursuit of perfection in art, craftsmanship, skill, etcetera, is one thing. Pursuit of the perfection of humanity is hubris. The real world never ceased to disappoint Marx, and it can be counted upon to disappoint any other non-reality based utopian vision that ignores human nature.

K.

Perfection in terms of the application of a sustainable system for the world's people and environment; which includes the eradication of hunger, war, pollution, and disease; while proving basic human needs without obligations of payment, servitude, or submission.

"Human nature" is over-used, often misapplied, and is a part of our collective conditioning which serves to have us shrugging our shoulders, and accepting the status quo along with all the aberrant behavior that goes with it. I had more to say about human nature in post 30.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/17/2011 11:15:33 PM

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quote:

subfever
"Human nature" is over-used, often misapplied, and is a part of our collective conditioning which serves to have us shrugging our shoulders, and accepting the status quo along with all the aberrant behavior that goes with it.

Yes. What exactly is "human nature"? It seems reasonable to me that whatever qualities define 'human nature' are qualities that must be shared by all humans. Sorry no exceptions allowed. To come up with such a quality is a lot more difficult than it sounds ......

So what exactly is human nature?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/17/2011 11:19:55 PM >

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 6:36:29 AM

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quote:

Sometimes, the steps aren't that big even though they can be radical.

The shift from say, monoculture in agriculture, to permaculture* systems is one example of the change in thinking I'd like to see.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

The wiki article was delightful to read.

This seems like an ideal system for the ecology. Would it support the world's population?

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 6:45:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

subfever
"Human nature" is over-used, often misapplied, and is a part of our collective conditioning which serves to have us shrugging our shoulders, and accepting the status quo along with all the aberrant behavior that goes with it.

Yes. What exactly is "human nature"? It seems reasonable to me that whatever qualities define 'human nature' are qualities that must be shared by all humans. Sorry no exceptions allowed. To come up with such a quality is a lot more difficult than it sounds ......

So what exactly is human nature?

The strict definition of human nature is: the sum of qualities and traits shared by all humans.

In my opinion, that sum is far less than most of us have been conditioned to believe.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 10:15:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

Marxism is simply a metaphysical doctrine, and Karl Marx himself was nothing but a religious eschatologist. His ideas may be worthy of discussion in an academic classroom setting, but anyone who takes them seriously is suffering from profound intellectual confusion.

Hardly...Wiki:

Marx's economic contribution was in his book Das Kapital which was 4 books. He published one while the others were drafted and after his death, edited and published by Engels. Marx essentially created the whole field of study called political/economy.

Aristotle and Greek philosophy in general, was another important (although often neglected) influence on Marx’s analysis of capitalism. Marx’s education at Bonn centered on Greek and Roman poets and philosophers. The dissertation he completed at the university was a comparison of the philosophy of nature in the works of Democritus and Epicurus. Marx was an atheist.

A number of scholars, moreover, have argued that the basic architecture of 'Capital' – including the categories of use and exchange value as well as the “Syllogyisms” for simple commodity circulation and circulation of value as capital was derived from the Politics (Aristotle) and the Nicomachean ethics.

His treatise is that of capital through what he knew was coming...a monetary system operated by central banks that would expand industrial economies as long as there was capital essential to its expansion. Once capital reached its breaking point, (not enough demand or 'dollar velocity) monetarism would fail due to overly necessary and thus the over extension of debt. Inevitable in this was the destruction of the skilled labor class and would produce debt driven poverty. We are seeing those signs and have been for the last 30 - 40 years.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/18/2011 10:28:25 AM >

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 10:32:28 AM

kdsub

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quote:

So what exactly is human nature?

tweakabelle

Human nature does not have to be the same to all... for instance it is human nature to murder out of greed and hatred but this is not common to all. To me human nature is history of past actions of human behavior when faced with common situations.

The want and need to profit from ones individual accomplishments and to gain just reward in relation to others is human nature and absolutely in opposition to Marxism.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/18/2011 10:33:38 AM >

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 11:02:59 AM

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quote:

for instance it is human nature to murder out of greed and hatred but this is not common to all.

Murder for greed and hatred is not human nature, it is human nurture. If the behavior is not common to all, then it is not human nature.

In the vast majority of cases, behavior like this is a result of what the perpetrator has experienced within his environment over a sufficient period of time.

In far fewer cases, there are people with aberrated physiology, such as chemical imbalances. It's debatable even then, if these cases are largely influenced by past environmental influences which directly contributed to their eventual chemical aberration.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 11:06:11 AM

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Perhaps we should initiate a new thread to address the Nature vs. Nurture topic, so as to avoid a hijack of the OP's topic.

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RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 11:09:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

Marxism is simply a metaphysical doctrine, and Karl Marx himself was nothing but a religious eschatologist. His ideas may be worthy of discussion in an academic classroom setting, but anyone who takes them seriously is suffering from profound intellectual confusion.

Hardly...Wiki:

Marx's economic contribution was in his book Das Kapital which was 4 books. He published one while the others were drafted and after his death, edited and published by Engels. Marx essentially created the whole field of study called political/economy.

Aristotle and Greek philosophy in general, was another important (although often neglected) influence on Marx’s analysis of capitalism. Marx’s education at Bonn centered on Greek and Roman poets and philosophers. The dissertation he completed at the university was a comparison of the philosophy of nature in the works of Democritus and Epicurus. Marx was an atheist.

A number of scholars, moreover, have argued that the basic architecture of 'Capital' – including the categories of use and exchange value as well as the “Syllogyisms” for simple commodity circulation and circulation of value as capital was derived from the Politics (Aristotle) and the Nicomachean ethics.

His treatise is that of capital through what he knew was coming...a monetary system operated by central banks that would expand industrial economies as long as there was capital essential to its expansion. Once capital reached its breaking point, (not enough demand or 'dollar velocity) monetarism would fail due to overly necessary and thus the over extension of debt. Inevitable in this was the destruction of the skilled labor class and would produce debt driven poverty. We are seeing those signs and have been for the last 30 - 40 years.

Thank you for a wonderful post, easy to read and succinctly to the point.
We CERTAINLY ARE seeing those signs and have been for the last 30-40 years!
The question these days is: "What the hell, do we do now?"

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"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 11:11:28 AM

kdsub

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Can't agree with you here... It is in our nature to kill ..I feel for you if you can't understand this... There is no such thing as nurture when it comes to killing.

ps...

... does that mean you agree with the rest of my statement.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/18/2011 11:25:39 AM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to subfever)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 11:31:52 AM

kdsub

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Can I nurture you into being a homosexual… or if not that a heterosexual? Nurturing may change the way you think of sexuality but it won’t change your sexuality. Nurturing may change the way you think about murder but it won’t change you into one.

Homosexuality…heterosexuality…killing…are all parts of out collective human nature not nurturing.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/18/2011 11:32:20 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: That need to embrace change through Marxism. - 4/18/2011 12:11:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

for instance it is human nature to murder out of greed and hatred but this is not common to all.

Murder for greed and hatred is not human nature, it is human nurture. If the behavior is not common to all, then it is not human nature.

In the vast majority of cases, behavior like this is a result of what the perpetrator has experienced within his environment over a sufficient period of time.

In far fewer cases, there are people with aberrated physiology, such as chemical imbalances. It's debatable even then, if these cases are largely influenced by past environmental influences which directly contributed to their eventual chemical aberration.

Nope, all of our evolutionary cousins (apes)and all carnivores kill (murder) for food and terrirtory, and employ violence on a regular basis.

These activities were being done by our ancestors long before we became human or had any sort of "culture".

and how exactly would one go about re socialising the entire human race?

Other than a brutal totalitarianism (for generations) the likes of which have never been seen before?

(in reply to subfever)

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