RE: Questions for the Atheists

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Brain -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 8:11:16 PM)
1) I would go to him or her to answer my questions about anything I didn't understand or to provide advice with any problems I have. 2) I See an atheist chaplain's role as being steering people in the right direction to find what they need in life to live the best life possible 3) At this time there is no degree or certificate in atheism so until one is created in the educational system I would require the person, in addition to being an atheist, to have a professional degree and the person could be a lawyer, teacher, accountant, doctor or something else of similar equivalency. quote: Would you, as an atheist, seek out a chaplain of atheism and if so what would you go to him/her about ? What role do you see an atheist chaplian playing in the Military or in society in general and do you think there is a need for one. What criteria/education would one need to become a Humanist Chaplain. Seems to me it would just be some atheist who wants the job. I know of no degrees or certificates you can get in " atheism".

Kirata -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 8:40:37 PM)
I'm not an atheist (though a lot of people would consider me one), but I don't have a problem with this. Most atheists I know have the same questions about the universe and the meaning of life as anyone else. Now according to the dictionary, a chaplain is "an ecclesiastic attached to the chapel of a royal court, college, etc., or to a military unit," and an ecclesiastic is defined as, "a member of the clergy or a person in religious orders." So I do understand your question about the appropriateness of the term. But nevertheless, the need being served here seems, at least to me, to be more within the role of a chaplain than a condition that requires psychological counseling. Theism insists that we must look to God for the answers to our questions, while humanism believes that we must find them within ourselves. As a practical matter, this is essentially a metaphysical quibble. K.

gungadin09 -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 8:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot In a nutshell he wants to have atheist chaplains in the military, he calls them Humanist Chaplains. By definition a Chaplain is one who belongs to a certain faith and prays. Given that atheists are faithless and don't pray I don't see how an atheist can call themselves a chaplain. It seems completly opposite of their belief system. < for lack of better wording > i don't think it matters much what they're called. They could call them "counselors", or redefine the word "chaplain" to mean: a person who provides spiritual or psychological support for members of a secular group. I don't understand why an atheist would want a " chaplain " since it goes against everything they think. What do "they think"? i'm curious. And there won't be humanist chaplains in the U.S. military unless there is support for the idea. Having said that, some people apparently do want them. Appointing some one as Head Honcho of Atheism, imo, makes it an organized non religion. Most atheists I know depise the organized part of religion,... Most i know despise the supernatural part of religion. ...yet this man wants to organize atheists under the guise of Chaplainhood. It seems to me their is some alterior motive behind this, but I can't think of what it might be. i can't think what it might be either, if not to provide moral support for people who wouldn't profit from religious support. So my questions are : Would you, as an atheist, seek out a chaplain of atheism and if so what would you go to him/her about ? i'm not in the military, but if i were i would want someone to listen to my fears and doubts. Someone who wouldn't tell me to suck it up and put my big girl pants on, or to trust God. What role do you see an atheist chaplian playing in the Military or in society in general and do you think there is a need for one. In society such people are called counselors, and they come in all flavors. In the military, i would see them playing the role i described above. i don't know if there is a need. i don't know many people in the military. What criteria/education would one need to become a Humanist Chaplain. Seems to me it would just be some atheist who wants the job. I know of no degrees or certificates you can get in " atheism". Do they give it now to any Catholic who wants the job? Same criteria, minus the religion. I really don't have any hard and fast opinion on this one. The only thing that kinda bugs me is that by definition an atheist could never be a Chaplain. And some may say we have progressed and their is a need for one. OK, why the use of the word chaplain. If we are going to change the definition of the English language we could find someone who wants to call a squirrel a dog and enter him in the dog show and make a sound arguement for that. The meaning of words isn't constant in English or any language. All languages evolve over time. But if they do decide to have atheist chaplains, i don't think it will matter what they're called. pam

lickenforyou -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/28/2011 11:26:14 PM)
quote: Most atheists I know have the same questions about the universe and the meaning of life as anyone else. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata I'm not an atheist (though a lot of people would consider me one), but I don't have a problem with this. Most atheists I know have the same questions about the universe and the meaning of life as anyone else. Now according to the dictionary, a chaplain is "an ecclesiastic attached to the chapel of a royal court, college, etc., or to a military unit," and an ecclesiastic is defined as, "a member of the clergy or a person in religious orders." So I do understand your question about the appropriateness of the term. But nevertheless, the need being served here seems, at least to me, to be more within the role of a chaplain than a condition that requires psychological counseling. Theism insists that we must look to God for the answers to our questions, while humanism believes that we must find them within ourselves. As a practical matter, this is essentially a metaphysical quibble. K. I am an atheist and I agree with everything that you wrote - except this statement "Most atheists I know have the same questions about the universe and the meaning of life as anyone else." I'm pretty sure that most atheist are more interested in the universe than religious people are, in general.

tweakabelle -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 2:55:43 AM)
Would it be a good idea to move beyond the semantics of 'chaplain' and ask if there is a real need to be addressed here? I see lots of media reports about the high levels of depression, substance abuse, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and other mental health problems among returning soldiers here in Australia, the US and the UK too. Invariably, there is mention of absence of or inadequate support services for these soldiers. It seems that the lessons arising from the problems experienced with returning Vietnam veterans either haven't been learnt, or the measures implemented are proving unable to deal with their issues. I don't pretend to understand the stresses these men and women have to deal with. But I have no difficulty accepting that left untreated they can be devastating. We, the people who ask them to fight in our names, have an obligation to ensure returning soldiers can freely access and receive whatever support they need. Non-believers and atheists have every right to expect and receive the same levels of support and understanding as their religious comrades. All have every right to expect and receive appropriate levels of support. As a non-believer, I would seriously hesitate to put any moral, ethical or psychological issues I might have in the hands of someone who (from my perspective) believes in superstition. It seems to me that far greater levels of support for all war veterans need to delivered as a matter of urgency. Recognition of the needs of non-believers must be a part of this response. It is difficult enough already to persuade many males to access such support without putting further obstacles in their paths. What the position is called is a minor detail - what is critical is that user-friendly support is organised and is available to all, irrespective of their belief system.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 8:02:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Would it be a good idea to move beyond the semantics of 'chaplain' and ask if there is a real need to be addressed here? I see lots of media reports about the high levels of depression, substance abuse, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and other mental health problems among returning soldiers here in Australia, the US and the UK too. Invariably, there is mention of absence of or inadequate support services for these soldiers. It seems that the lessons arising from the problems experienced with returning Vietnam veterans either haven't been learnt, or the measures implemented are proving unable to deal with their issues. What you are saying is true, however it has nothing to do with a Chaplain. Mental health disorders are serious and require the treatment of a trained professional. A Chaplain does not fill that role I don't pretend to understand the stresses these men and women have to deal with. But I have no difficulty accepting that left untreated they can be devastating. We, the people who ask them to fight in our names, have an obligation to ensure returning soldiers can freely access and receive whatever support they need. True again. Same answer: A chaplain does not have the proper tools to treat psychological disorders Non-believers and atheists have every right to expect and receive the same levels of support and understanding as their religious comrades. All have every right to expect and receive appropriate levels of support. As a non-believer, I would seriously hesitate to put any moral, ethical or psychological issues I might have in the hands of someone who (from my perspective) believes in superstition. OK, fair enough. A question for you: Who do you go to for moral/ethical support ? We, the superstitious, do not run to our clergymen with every ethical/moral issue that arises in our lives. I ouwld venture to say that that is the exception rather than the rule. I have already addr4ssed psychological issues. It seems to me that far greater levels of support for all war veterans need to delivered as a matter of urgency. Recognition of the needs of non-believers must be a part of this response. It is difficult enough already to persuade many males to access such support without putting further obstacles in their paths. I really don't think that it is difficult for a military male to seek out spiritual support, which is the role of a Chaplain. What the position is called is a minor detail - what is critical is that user-friendly support is organised and is available to all, irrespective of their belief system. I would disagree. I am a Christian,one of my best friends is a Buddhist. I would no more direct her to my minister for spiritual counseling, than she would direct me to her priest. If I had questions surrounding life after death < for example >, a Buddist Preist would be of no value to me, just as a Minister would have no value to her. When it somes to matters of spirituality, there is no one size fits all. You are describing mental health issues that arise as a result of wartime or military life. It seems to me, you are looking for a way for some one with mental health issues in the military to skirt and avoid the stigma that is associated with these issues. We have enough problems with our men and women in uniform suffering mental health issues. WHat we do not need is an untrained individual with no experience/training to play witch doctor to people with real problems and real needs. So, in the case you present it is not a matter of semantics in what we call them. You are looking for a layman to provide some brand of therapy that s/he is unqualified to provide. IF you had a friend who you suspected was BiPolar or suffering from Major Depression: would you send him/her to a learned athiet for treatment ? I don't believe so. Why do you suggest that our soldiers go to someone unqualified and to get inappropriate treatment. Actually, I wouldn't even cal it treatment, I would call it a chat fest.

Archer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 8:48:03 AM)
I know more than a few atheist folks who are quite spiritual in their outlook on life. Spiritual meaning matters relating to the human spirit and it's relationship to the universe. @ Maybemaybenot, You are correct that chaplains of any ilk are not qualified to provide psychological counseling unless they also have education as such. However a councilor of any ilk likewise lacks the qualifications to council someone on matters spiritual unless they have the spiritual education. Both types of people have to recognize their limitations and capabilities and refer the person to the other type of person when they recognize they are in need of those things they cannot provide. You here appear to be ignoreing the benefits of spiritual counciling and it's therapeutic value, especially in conjunction with psychological counseling. You mention it's not usual to run to the clergy with every run of the mill spiritual problem. Nothing in the combat veteran's life is the usual, it's all EXCEPTIONAL to use your word. Unless your job consists of killing people and destroying property and occasionally your duties result in the deaths of innocents? Sometimes the logic of science and psychology isn't going to do the trick when the wound is to your soul/ your spirit, atheists may not believe in God but many of them do believe that we have a soul even if it is not "immortal". While you cite the chaplin as being unqualified witch doctors (nice little attack there) I would say your scientists sometimes lack the understanding and training nessisary to handle wounds to the soul. BTW we're not talking about uneducated bafoons becomming Chaplains, the military requires all Chaplains to have a Bachelor's degree. A Both better than either alone approach is what I advocate, being able to go to a chaplain and just bounce the questions off them can PREVENT the wounds from becoming as psychically infected as they become when soldiers wait and tough it out until they get back home. An Atheist Chaplain while seeming oxymoronic really isn't in all cases. Spirituality is not limited to theists, and as such some forms of atheism are quite concerned with spiritual matters of the human soul. How can we deny them trained spiritual leaders who fit their system of beliefs?

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 8:49:28 AM)
Just as a point of interest: Mr. Torpy and other atheists pushing for this have not said they want the role of a Humnist Chaplain to be that of a pshychological counsilor/therapist or anything like that. From reading the article and hearing Mr. Torpy what they are seeking is a more of a leader of a support group for atheists who feel they are being ostrasized from others due to their beliefs. This is the " job description " for atheist chaplain from Jason Torpy website: < link in Post #1 > " Chaplains in government service should serve the needs of all service members. They should provide counseling to improve the morale of soldiers and help service members with their personal problems. Chaplains should protect the beliefs of all service members and ensure that there is no actual or perceived discrimination within the command based on service members' beliefs. MAAF also intends for this policy to reconcile chaplains with nontheistic service members or commanders who are intolerant of the faith-based chaplaincy. In order to do this, chaplains must have sufficient training and experience to provide service to all service members. The ability to run worship services for one faith group is a skill chaplains must focus on one group, but their ability to counsel, foster worship services, and advise the command involves training far beyond what they bring to their military chaplain training from seminary. This task starts by opening communication between chaplains, MAAF, and the many nontheist organizations that are ready to support service members. MAAF is facilitating the endorsement of humanist chaplains for military service (see application below; program details to be published). They would be able to run counseling sessions and morale-building events for all service members without the perception of exclusion of persons not belonging to a specific faith group. This chaplain could just as easily assist in the organization of religious events, just as a Christian chaplain assists the activities of Jewish soldiers, a secular chaplain assist the activities of any soldier. Whether chaplains become secular or remain solely faith-based, chaplains must become more versatile and tolerant, and the military must ensure its chaplains serve all service members. To support a purely theistic chaplaincy is to support an unconstitutional government priesthood. Acceptance of humanist chaplains and MAAF support will greatly improve the diversity and value of the current chaplaincy. Perhaps I didn't provide or elaborate enough in my OP, hopefully that helps illuminate what Mr. Torpy and others are seeking. And.... i didn't noticed until I just re read this webpage that Humanist Chaplians would be required to have some training. I don't quite get what exactly that training is, but it's a starting place. It lickenforyou: I accept your position on the military red tape in creating something new. You are much more knowledgable than me about the workings of the military. mbmbn

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:07:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer I know more than a few atheist folks who are quite spiritual in their outlook on life. Spiritual meaning matters relating to the human spirit and it's relationship to the universe. @ Maybemaybenot, You are correct that chaplains of any ilk are not qualified to provide psychological counseling unless they also have education as such. However a councilor of any ilk likewise lacks the qualifications to council someone on matters spiritual unless they have the spiritual education. Both types of people have to recognize their limitations and capabilities and refer the person to the other type of person when they recognize they are in need of those things they cannot provide. You here appear to be ignoreing the benefits of spiritual counciling and it's therapeutic value, especially in conjunction with psychological counseling. You mention it's not usual to run to the clergy with every run of the mill spiritual problem. Nothing in the combat veteran's life is the usual, it's all EXCEPTIONAL to use your word. Unless your job consists of killing people and destroying property and occasionally your duties result in the deaths of innocents? Sometimes the logic of science and psychology isn't going to do the trick when the wound is to your soul/ your spirit, atheists may not believe in God but many of them do believe that we have a soul even if it is not "immortal". While you cite the chaplin as being unqualified witch doctors (nice little attack there) I would say your scientists sometimes lack the understanding and training nessisary to handle wounds to the soul. BTW we're not talking about uneducated bafoons becomming Chaplains, the military requires all Chaplains to have a Bachelor's degree. A Both better than either alone approach is what I advocate, being able to go to a chaplain and just bounce the questions off them can PREVENT the wounds from becoming as psychically infected as they become when soldiers wait and tough it out until they get back home. An Atheist Chaplain while seeming oxymoronic really isn't in all cases. Spirituality is not limited to theists, and as such some forms of atheism are quite concerned with spiritual matters of the human soul. How can we deny them trained spiritual leaders who fit their system of beliefs? Good response Archer. You gave me something to consider.[:)] Just to clarify : The context in which I used the term witch doctor was to indicate/imply an untrained person doling out therapy. It was not specific to atheists, unlike the " attacks " used in this thread against people of faith. < superstitious, religious racism, zombie Jesus. I would have used the same term if we were discussing allowing a Minister, Rabbi or Priest to treat mental health issues. mbmbn

Owner59 -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:09:10 AM)
"I know more than a few atheist folks who are quite spiritual in their outlook on life. Spiritual meaning matters relating to the human spirit and it's relationship to the universe." Couldn`t agree more.I believe there is something,call it god if you want.But I don`t believe there is a person-like entity overseeing things and keeping track etc.I don`t believe in Jesus,Mohamed or Moses,the Pagan gods,the Mormons or anything more organized than a local gathering. I don`t beleive in a "god" in the traditional way but consider myself a spiritual person. Am I an atheist? I don`t consider myself as one but have been called that.Usually, hurled as a kind of insult by a pissed off believer.

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:14:23 AM)
quote: Brain: At this time there is no degree or certificate in atheism so until one is created in the educational system I would require the person, in addition to being an atheist, to have a professional degree and the person could be a lawyer, teacher, accountant, doctor or something else of similar equivalency. This is some really deeeeep thinking here, "brain". First off, how could there possibly be a degree in "god does not exist"? Secondly, why would you require an additional degree for an atheist "chaplain"? Do you require an accounting or engineering degree of an xtian or Islamic chaplain? Thirdly, even of there could be some sort of professional certification for an atheist, why do you think atheists like myself would think there is an validity to one? I mean, from my atheist POV, a degree in "divinity" or "theology" has as much meaning as a degree in "Batman".

maybemaybenot -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:40:21 AM)
First off, how could there possibly be a degree in "god does not exist"? I don't know, that's one of my points. Secondly, why would you require an additional degree for an atheist "chaplain"? Do you require an accounting or engineering degree of an xtian or Islamic chaplain? I wouldn't. I would * think * the requirements themselves would preclude most atheists from qualifying. IF you read the webpage I linked Mr. Torpy want to have his own set of requirements, which are not consitent with the current requirements and allows for preferential treatment, and moving up the Military ladder to one group of people.The military spells out the requirements for Chaplainhood quite clearly: Chaplain Requirements You must obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement from your faith group. This endorsement should certify that you are: A clergy person in your denomination or faith group. Qualified spiritually, morally, intellectually and emotionally to serve as a Chaplain in the Army. Sensitive to religious pluralism and able to provide for the free exercise of religion by all military personnel, their family members and civilians who work for the Army. Educationally, you must: Possess a baccalaureate degree of not less than 120 semester hours. Possess a graduate degree in theological or religious studies, plus have earned at least a total of 72 semester hours in graduate work in these fields of study. Applicants for active duty or the National Guard MUST be U.S. citizens. Permanent residents can ONLY apply for the Army Reserve. Be able to receive a favorable National Agency Security Clearance. Pass a physical exam at one of our Military Entrance Processing Stations (MEPS). A minimum of two years of full-time professional experience, validated by the applicant’s endorsing agency (This requirement is not applicable to Army Reserve applicants). Must be at least 21 years of age, but younger than 45 at time of appointment. Prior service applicants with at least 3 years of prior AFS or creditable USAR service must be younger than 47 at time of appointment. http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about/requirements.html Thirdly, even of there could be some sort of professional certification for an atheist, why do you think atheists like myself would think there is an validity to one? I mean, from my atheist POV, a degree in "divinity" or "theology" has as much meaning as a degree in "Batman". I don't know. Those were my thoughts exactly. What validity would an atheist see in a Chaplain of non belief. Hence my wondering what on earth athiests would want to organize themselves under the heading of " Chaplain ". [/quote] mbmbn

Archer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:41:58 AM)
Brain and others note as mentioned in my first post. US Military Chaplains are required to have a bachelor's degree of some sort. Humanist chaplain would need one as well, even if it is in accounting. My guess though would be that many of the people moved to become chaplains in the military would be psychology or sociology majors, people with a distinctly humanist do gooder attitude. So they might in fact be better suited to what we accept as professional counseling than their seminary graduated cohorts. As noted in Maybemaybenot's second posting US Military Chaplains tend to cross train in different faiths. Catholic Chaplains learn to stand in for a rabbis when needed, etc. Mostly we have Christian soldiers and Christian ministers in the Chaplain corps, but they have opened things up a little more in the past decade or so with Wicca being recognized for dogtags etc.

Archer -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 9:55:58 AM)
For the general record I consider myself a universalist (not the unitarian kind). My core belief is that all the religions of the world are attempts to know "God" by whatever name you want to give. That Everyone of them have found little nuggets of truth about the human soul and it's relationship with the universe and that every one of them has a HUGE body of work that is just plain wrong and misguided. My belief is that I must pan for the nuggets of gold (truth) and dump the spoil.

Owner59 -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 10:07:00 AM)
Obviously there are different interpretations of atheism, just as there are in theism. Of course there can be a atheological degree as there are theological degrees, in so for as spiritual counseling goes. Don`t expect our fundie-cons in Washington to be accommodating. http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/bushwicca.htm

DomKen -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (4/29/2011 11:39:39 AM)
FR Military chaplains fulfill a number of duties. First they perform worship services for military personel, atheists certainly have no need for that. Secondly and more importantly they act as counselors and as advocates for servicepeople who are outside the chain of command but inside the military. Also they do perform marriages and preside over funerals and the like. Finally a chaplain is present when the next of kin is notified of a servicepersons death or serious injury. Those latter duties are appropriate places for what would be called an athiest chaplain for lack of a better term.

paulmcuk -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (5/2/2011 12:52:56 PM)
I would suspect it's part of the wider campaign to have atheist/humanist groups allowed on military bases. Faith groups are commonplace but there have been a number of recent cases where attempts to establish athist/humanist groups have been denied by superior officers. Such groups are all the more important since the revelations about the, frankly odious, element of the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program which measures "spirituality" and has brave, loyal soldiers marked down as unreliable if not deemed spiritual enough.

NorthernGent -> RE: Questions for the Atheists (5/2/2011 3:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot In a nutshell he wants to have atheist chaplains in the military, he calls them Humanist Chaplains. By definition a Chaplain is one who belongs to a certain faith and prays. Given that atheists are faithless and don't pray I don't see how an atheist can call themselves a chaplain. It seems completly opposite of their belief system. < for lack of better wording > The role of the chaplain included reminding the soldiers of the cause: gott mit uns. Humanism is bound up with securalism. I suppose you could have a humanist chaplain extoling the virtues of securalism as a cause worth fighting for. In addition, the founding fathers of Humanism, e.g. Erasmus, were christians; they were suspended between faith and reason. Doesn't seem there's a call for such a chaplain, though. I'm not an atheist, nor a christian, more a don'tcarewhetherornotthere'sagodist.

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