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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/15/2011 11:38:09 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
...but that means they are freely able to go into someone else's home with knives and axe handles when they are released.

It's amusing to me how Aussies like to brag about their country's gun control laws while forgetting that when Australia initially banned guns, gun crime spiked long before it began to decrease. That means that for a time, gun-toting criminals had free reign, knowing they had no fear of armed opposition.
  Wrong.  The same armed opposition existed that always had.  Law enforcement.

You're completely naive if you ever thought guns were a deterrent to any kind of urban crime.  In my entire life in Australia, I personally knew ONE person who owned a gun.  And that was because he worked for the rough Australian equivalent of the secret service.  The only other people who routinely carried guns were farmers who used them for pest control.

No doubt they existed and some people bought them - but they were exceptionally rare to find in an urban setting and at the time getting a license to carry one concealed was practically impossible for a private citizen.

When the NRA published statistics trying to imply gun crimes had increased in Australia after the introduction of new gun laws and the buyback of guns, they were called out by the Federal Attorney General for falsifying government statistics.  In fact, no such increase ever occurred and gun violence in Australia continued the downward slope that had already been in evidence prior to the introduction of said laws.

This low level of criminal activity and violent crime relative to the USA is one of the reasons why Australia and New Zealand are #2 and #3 in the UN's Human Development Index list of the best countries in the world to live in.  New Zealand Immigration sums it up this way:

“In many ways it’s not what we have that’s important to our quality of life—it’s what we don’t have. We don’t have high crime rates, our police don’t carry guns and instances of corruption are virtually unheard of. We don’t have abject poverty or hunger and we don’t have the pollution, congestion, health issues and cramped city living that we see elsewhere.”

I've lived in these two countries and you want to tell me how it is??  Get real dude.  You haven't a clue - and while you're whirling in a pool of frustration and squawk about how guns make you safer, I just smile and remember that I've heard a gun discharged probably once in my life.  And that when I walk down the main street of the capital city here at night, the last thing I'm thinking about is that someone may come up and stick a gun in my face.


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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/15/2011 11:39:29 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its not a lust for guns. Its a system that is broken and we have a powerful lobby in the pockets of the government... namely the NRA. IF they were actually in support of legal gun possession, they would be against the bullshit gun shows that allow anyone to show up and buy a gun without a background check. While that is only a part of the problem... it IS a problem.

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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/15/2011 11:43:32 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Isnt it amazing that all these unused accounts just pop up in the political forum on a BDSM site?
Shocking, innit?


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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/15/2011 11:44:29 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

Is it just me or does the thought of banning guns for citizens leave a doorway of opportunity for criminals to do pretty much whatever they please... because, frankly, they arent too worried about the law to begin with.



rest assured the last person to get a hold of guns if they are banned are the criminals.  not a chance!  we know for a fact that criminals never violate any laws so they wont violate gun laws either.

so we can sleep well


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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 12:42:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

  No.  They're not.  It's just gun-obsessive propaganda.  Like when the NRA claimed that Australian restrictions on semi-automatics led to a violent crime wave.  It did nothing of the sort.  Those are just lies.


Yes. You are correct. There was no spike in gun crimes here following the introduction of restrictions.

The NRA apparently informs the dupes who swallow its propaganda that gun crime here in Australia is supposed to have tripled following the legislation. This is completely false.

While a few gun owners are dissatisfied with the new laws, there has been no public calls by anyone significant to restore the old laws that I have noticed. In other words, restrictions on gun ownership is broadly accepted by Australians and no one (outside of a few gun nuts) wants to change that.

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 1:08:19 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"You're completely naive if you ever thought guns were a deterrent to any kind of urban crime."

Really. There is a really nice laptop sitting just a few feet from my front door. It'll get you a whole bunch of dimes of crack. Why don't you stop over and pick it up ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 1:33:15 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

This low level of criminal activity and violent crime relative to the USA is one of the reasons why Australia and New Zealand are #2 and #3 in the UN's Human Development Index list of the best countries in the world to live in.  New Zealand Immigration sums it up this way:

“In many ways it’s not what we have that’s important to our quality of life—it’s what we don’t have. We don’t have high crime rates, our police don’t carry guns and instances of corruption are virtually unheard of. We don’t have abject poverty or hunger and we don’t have the pollution, congestion, health issues and cramped city living that we see elsewhere.”

I've lived in these two countries and you want to tell me how it is??  Get real dude.  You haven't a clue - and while you're whirling in a pool of frustration and squawk about how guns make you safer, I just smile and remember that I've heard a gun discharged probably once in my life.  And that when I walk down the main street of the capital city here at night, the last thing I'm thinking about is that someone may come up and stick a gun in my face.




Congratulations. Would you like a pat on the head?

Au. and NZ apples are much better than US oranges, no question.

The socioeconomic and historical situations are so entirely different, thanks for not noticing. The perspicacious observer would note that US large city urban areas are different than those of other fully developed countries, for a variety of reasons you seem to be well unacquainted with.

I am not going on either side of the question, but the total obliviousness to others' situations by some here I find astounding, although the aggressive smugness that seems to accompany it I do not.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/16/2011 1:34:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 1:48:39 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"You're completely naive if you ever thought guns were a deterrent to any kind of urban crime."

Really. There is a really nice laptop sitting just a few feet from my front door. It'll get you a whole bunch of dimes of crack. Why don't you stop over and pick it up ?

T^T
  What's amusing is how a gun-obsessive takes a quote out of context to imply I said something which I clearly did not say.

It's the kind of dishonesty for which they're notorious.  The NRA being a prime example.


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 1:51:02 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Congratulations. Would you like a pat on the head?
  Nah dude, you know that illusory sense of superiority that Americans have?  Nobody believes it but you.

quote:

Au. and NZ apples are much better than US oranges, no question.
  Oh, so you're agreeing with me then.  The USA is a demonstrably different society and gun violence is a major part of that.

quote:

The socioeconomic and historical situations are so entirely different, thanks for not noticing. The perspicacious observer would note that US large city urban areas are different than those of other fully developed countries, for a variety of reasons you seem to be well unacquainted with.
  Oh, so now you're trying to tell me that the US is an inherently more violent country which has nothing to do with the obsession with guns.  Given you don't have a control with which to justify that, it's pure wishful thinking on your part.

quote:

I am not going on either side of the question, but the total obliviousness to others' situations by some here I find astounding, although the aggressive smugness that seems to accompany it I do not.
  Oh dear.  Gun obsessives try and justify their need for guns as a safety issue, then when it's pointed out to them that guns don't create safety but rather reduce it, they resort to "Yes, but America's different."

  Of course gun obsession couldn't have anything to do with that difference could it.  No.  Not possible.


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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 2:01:33 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Nah dude, you know that illusory sense of superiority that Americans have?



You mean that you tell us about all the time? Why do not others in the world listen to you?



But in any event the differences are all due to gun obsession and gun obsession alone then, right? The completely different history, the political corruption, etc.?

Time doesn't conveniently warp quite as easily as your head, sorry.


quote:

 
Oh, so now you're trying to tell me that the US is an inherently more violent country which has nothing to do with the obsession with guns.  Given you don't have a control with which to justify that, it's pure wishful thinking on your part.




Do you have a control with which to justify your assertion? Do you always make such asinine statements? I didn't say that 'America' is more violent, I said that the American urban/inner city environment is different than other countries' counterparts. Most people outside of the US know this.



"Oh dear.  Gun obsessives try and justify their need for guns as a safety issue, ... "


Being that this is addressed to me:

How do you figure me as a  "gun obsessive" when I've never owned one, never even held one in my hand?

Anymore clueless presumptions to make your case there?






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/16/2011 2:28:04 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 2:43:36 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
Wrong.  The same armed opposition existed that always had.  Law enforcement.


Seriously? LoL and you call me naive. You're the naive one if you rely on the cops to both come immediately to aid *you* when some nut enters your home wishing to do you harm.

As the saying goes, when *seconds* count, cops are *minutes* away. Even if the police station is around the corner, you're looking at at least a minute or two response time. Massacres have happened in less time than that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
And that when I walk down the main street of the capital city here at night, the last thing I'm thinking about is that someone may come up and stick a gun in my face.


Of course not. You're wondering about knives and ax handles. Just a different type of weapon. What, do we ban knives and ax handles too? The criminals will just use something else.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 3:08:46 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"What's amusing is how a gun-obsessive takes a quote out of context to imply I said something which I clearly did not say. "

Really ?

"You're completely naive if you ever thought guns were a deterrent to any kind of urban crime"

So, somebody sneaked in and typed that while you were taking a piss or something ? Sorry I had no idea. Tell you what, get a gun and shoot that fucker and I'll never accuse you of saying shit that was posted in your name again. Deal ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 3:15:10 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Isnt it amazing that all these unused accounts just pop up in the political forum on a BDSM site?


Oh, yeah - *political*!!!!! <light bulb goes on>

I just assumed it got moved here for the gun-nut religion of it all.

Focus.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 3:41:09 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Nah dude, you know that illusory sense of superiority that Americans have?  Nobody believes it but you."

Yeah hotshot ? I got my finger on the trigger and it's loaded. You are looking down the barrell.

What's the fucking illusion now ?

T^T

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 5:27:12 AM   
manatthewheel


Posts: 42
Joined: 3/20/2009
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quote:

quote:

I can tell you for a fact, that the Bureau is definitely not engaged in any 'studies' that produce data designed to promote private gun ownership.


Funny, most studies start with a theory, then data is gathered and analyzed, and only then is a conclusion reached. Seems to me that 'the Bureau' is doing things bass-ackwards if they definitely aren't engaged in studies that produce a specific conclusion.

quote:

By the way, if you would like the perspective of someone who ACTUALLY carries a gun and has had to discharge it several times in the span of his career[/snip]

Wow, I'm impressed. Some random guy on the internet claims to be a LEO with knowledge of the FBI's stat gathering methods and having had to discharge his weapon 'several times'. Thank goodness your hidden profile, been here 2 years, never posted before self just happened to stumble on this particular gun thread.

Is anyone missing a sock?


Nice try. Nope, I'm as real a person as the next. My profile hasn't been hidden for two years or ever to my knowledge.
Gee where on the the forum would you suggest I turn in my gun and shield?
You know what? I think I'll keep em, wait the 4 1/2 months I have left to go and retire. My socks, by the way, are both blue.
<<<<smooch>>>>>

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 9:51:11 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Oh, so you're agreeing with me then.  The USA is a demonstrably different society and gun violence is a major part of that.


I think it is very easy to think that gun violence is a major part of American society. It is in some places, but American society is large, heterogeneous and covers large swaths of area. It would be like saying that Spain and Germany had the same sort of society, just because they are on the same continent. We have 50 states and several distinct regions...

And btw, not all Americans are smug either, nor do we think we are "superior" to other people.

As far as gun obsessions, there are many people who are, but the extent of that obsession is somewhat regional.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 10:41:52 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		In Missouri crime INCREASED from 2003, when conceal and carry began, to 2010. To me this shows conceal and carry has not affected the murder, home invasion, assault, burglary, or rape rate at all.

With the availability of more hand guns there have been many gun accidents in the St Louis area...most often involving children. What is the benefit?

It is easier for a 5 year old to pickup and pull the trigger on a handgun then a shotgun or rifle.

Bottom line in Missouri...no benefit in preventing crime and more deaths and injuries by accidents.

Seems to me it is just as easy to protect my home with a shotgun then a handgun...so why do we have the conceal and carry law?

Yes there is the right to carry and then there is common sense.

Butch

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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 6:46:13 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"I just looked up people who have had weapons discharge while cleaning them, it isn't as unlikely as you claim.... "

Yea, if you believe bullshit. Tell me how someone is into guns and maintaining them properly, yet can't tell if the fucking thing as loaded. Riddle me that.

You can come up with all the statistics you want, but the people who say they were cleaning a gun but didn't know it was loaded are full of fucking shit, hands down, plain and simple. You oil the fucking breech and chamber too you know. The reciever, all that. What now "No I only oil the trigger and the barrell". Bullmotherfuckingshit. Ad if you look at the design of most firearms, they are specifically designed NOT to fire unless you pull the trigger. You are not fooling me, I am just here to tell you to stop fooling yourself.

So he killed sopmeone on purpose, I don't have a problem with that. I kinda wonder why, but oh well.

T^T



I would have to concur with Termyn8or on this one.  Most of these so called accidental discharges while cleaning are possibly while their getting ready to clean the gun or just an excuse a person uses after a careless mishap. Maybe the cleaning kit is out and they have the rod pieces screwed together but the accidental discharge is careless handling with a loaded weapon. Safety off and finger on the trigger and pointed at something or someone you don't intend to shoot. All of these things are in violation of gun safety rules.

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 7:34:56 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		the only one obsessed fixated on guns seems to be you.

have you had that problem long or has it come on recently?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 7:37:23 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
"I just looked up people who have had weapons discharge while cleaning them, it isn't as unlikely as you claim.... "

Yea, if you believe bullshit. Tell me how someone is into guns and maintaining them properly, yet can't tell if the fucking thing as loaded. Riddle me that.

You can come up with all the statistics you want, but the people who say they were cleaning a gun but didn't know it was loaded are full of fucking shit, hands down, plain and simple. You oil the fucking breech and chamber too you know. The reciever, all that. What now "No I only oil the trigger and the barrell". Bullmotherfuckingshit. Ad if you look at the design of most firearms, they are specifically designed NOT to fire unless you pull the trigger. You are not fooling me, I am just here to tell you to stop fooling yourself.

So he killed sopmeone on purpose, I don't have a problem with that. I kinda wonder why, but oh well.

I would have to concur with Termyn8or on this one.  Most of these so called accidental discharges while cleaning are possibly while their getting ready to clean the gun or just an excuse a person uses after a careless mishap. Maybe the cleaning kit is out and they have the rod pieces screwed together but the accidental discharge is careless handling with a loaded weapon. Safety off and finger on the trigger and pointed at something or someone you don't intend to shoot. All of these things are in violation of gun safety rules.


How many of them were drunk or on drugs (or both) at the time?


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Profile   Post #: 160
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