RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it?

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xssve -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 8:55:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail ah, shit....I gobbed the screen of your picture lotsa times. Now I feel all cheap and shit. I confess, I've dressed you with my eyes like a million times.

xssve -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 9:05:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy OMG, I have to send Jennifer Connelly an apology I guess. Case in point: it's hard to look at Jennifer Connelly in a Cashmere sweater and not feel... something - but at least for me, that's about it, my imagination is good, but it's not that good - at best I might be able to conjure up a Jennifer Connelly look alike who happened to be into mud wrestling or something, it's not like I have the faintest idea what she's like in any way. i.e., it isn't her, she just inspired a stream of consciousness montage, a mixture of fantasy and memory, it's strictly a symbol.

NuevaVida -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 9:07:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: Arpig, I would not mind you thinking about me if you used your real photo; your new one scares the crap out of me!! It scares me too! It makes me think of Deliverance OMG! Now I'm scared and creeped!

AAkasha -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 9:10:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wheldrake quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Perhaps you are just "undressing them with your eyes" or having a conversation that is leading, but sexually charged for you - without them even knowing it. What about masturbating to the sound of his/her voice on the phone but never fessing up to it? Do you believe you need to get consent from someone before you take sexual gratification on their behalf, even if they are totally unaware of it? Akasha I don't have a problem with any of the things you mentioned. After all, they don't affect (let alone harm) the "objectified" person in any way. But if you're thinking about the ethics of getting aroused without the consent or even knowledge of the person who stimulated your arousal, a fairly obvious question arises. How do you feel about people who get turned on by reading your stories, and the other content you post on your website? What if they're thinking about (or beating off to) not just the fiction itself, but the thought of the woman behind the stories and what an awesomely kinky mind she must have? I do have a stake in the answer to this question, since your writing had exactly this effect on me when I was barely legal and just discovering possibilities. If you find that type of reaction objectionable, then I guess I owe you an apology. I write erotica knowing it is erotica so the result is not offensive to me. I am talking more about situations where a person may be "using" another person sexually without their knowledge at all. For example, a foot fetishist gets a job at a shoe store and spends all day touching the feet of women, and may at times be sexually aroused by it, but the woman has no knowledge. Is that unethical? If she NOTICES the erection, is it then unethical? A woman purposely leaves a box in a place where she knows that she will be able to ask her handsome neighbor to pick it up and take it up into the rafters and he will comply, but she does so simply because she has a fetish for his body or his ass in the jeans (I picked something random, but you get the idea). He just thinks he is helping out, but she's doing it all with the strict intent to sexually objectify him in her head. If a person is purposely doing something with the intent to obtain sexual gratification from the other person without the other person ever knowing they are being somewhat manipulated, is that unethical? I suppose that's the more specific question. It's been an interesting read, this thread. Akasha

Awareness -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 9:47:11 PM)
No, it's none of their goddamned business and if I jerk off while talking to them and they have no idea, that's a tribute to my ability to keep my breathing steady, not a violation of their fundamental rights. This question sounds like the kind of stupid crap militant feminists go on about. IE. Stupid. Yes. Stupid feminist crap is stupid.

xssve -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/17/2011 10:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I write erotica knowing it is erotica so the result is not offensive to me. I am talking more about situations where a person may be "using" another person sexually without their knowledge at all. For example, a foot fetishist gets a job at a shoe store and spends all day touching the feet of women, and may at times be sexually aroused by it, but the woman has no knowledge. Is that unethical? If she NOTICES the erection, is it then unethical? A woman purposely leaves a box in a place where she knows that she will be able to ask her handsome neighbor to pick it up and take it up into the rafters and he will comply, but she does so simply because she has a fetish for his body or his ass in the jeans (I picked something random, but you get the idea). He just thinks he is helping out, but she's doing it all with the strict intent to sexually objectify him in her head. If a person is purposely doing something with the intent to obtain sexual gratification from the other person without the other person ever knowing they are being somewhat manipulated, is that unethical? I suppose that's the more specific question. It's been an interesting read, this thread. Akasha All good points, I write erotica too, which is sort of like professional fantasizing - I don't do fan-fic however, mainly because those characters are someone elses properties, but there's a huge underground of it. Which raises another question: if you wanted to fantasize about someone else's submissive, should you ask their owners permission? [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s2.gif[/image] Something tells me the cure would be worse than the disease.

DesFIP -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 1:03:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP To me, it's immoral. In fact, during the Day of Atonement, this is one of the things we confess to. From the Al Cheyt Reconstructionist Version used at my temple: "For the wrong we did before You by using sex exploitatively". If the person knew about it and found it wrong, then it's wrong. It's like cheating, you don't define it. The person who feels that you cheated on them gets to define it. Well, frankly, someone can define whatever they like to the nth degree, but it's just their definition. It wouldn't mean that YOUR idea of whether YOU cheated is any less valid. If someone found out and DECIDED that they thought it was wrong, for them, then you simply have two people with differing ideas of what is right and wrong, what is cheating and what isn't. Bear in mind that some people's idea of cheating incorporates who and what you think about when you're having a private moment or two. agirl Absolutely. But if the person feels you cheated, then you explaining it was just oral sex and not really cheating isn't going to change anything. They are still going to think of you as a cheater and not trust you. Obviously these definitions should be nailed down prior to establishing a relationship. And I'm not saying anyone else has to go by my definition, I'm just saying that to me, if there isn't consent, then it's unethical. I do think that porn actors and Playboy models do give consent simply by agreeing to be in pictures designed to create those reactions in men. If they didn't consent to be seen this way, they wouldn't have agreed to do it. However I must admit that I have never imagined a guy naked. And I don't find other men sexually attractive when I'm in a relationship.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 1:36:50 AM)
quote: And I don't find other men sexually attractive when I'm in a relationship I notice that they are sexually attractive, just because I am with somebody I don't turn blind, I'll still look and maybe flirt but don't take it any further, simply because I'm really not wired that I could enjoy having intercourse with more than one guy, tried that once and found it confusing and distracting and never repeated the experiment. I will still notice if somebody has sex appeal or a great body and enjoy noticing it. I might even go home and tell my partner about it (he does the same) and we usually come to the conclusion to have steamy sex together, and if you're pretty exhausted from that, you don't really tend to focus on another outside of the relationship. I think my other half coined the charming phrase "We better fuck out ideas of others..." It works, really no complains....

TheCabal -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 2:34:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U quote: ORIGINAL: TheCabal quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U quote: ORIGINAL: TheCabal quote: Men would fall over and die if this suddenly became a rule. The porn industry is proof that fantasy is alive and well. Yeah.... just men. snicker Porn guys honestly make me want to vomit...now that guy at the gym [;)] Meh... you're probably just watching the wrong sort of porn. Granted 95% of non-gay porn, the men are just there as props. Two words for you Ron Jeremy...seriously EEEWWWE!! Pardon me while I go vomit. Indeed. [:D][:D]

ranja -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 6:41:01 AM)
for me sexy instances are part of the excitement of life... it makes everyday living so much more interesting and there is generally no need to ask for permission... some things might be unethical, but mainly it is just a bit of private fun i have been with a very jealous boyfriend who was very threatened by situations like these... situations that i encounter absolutely everywhere when my mind is open for it... the people looking at me with a desire... the man caressing feet at the shoeshop... the guy leaning against me in an overfull bus... my dentist the man i dance with for 3 minutes before moving on to the next... my strange neighbour who keeps on invading my fantasies mmmm The jealous boyfriend tried to make me feel bad about it... for him it amounted to cheating and i was not allowed to experience any of these exciting feelings except for when it was all about him... as if he really had any control over it... it took me ages to understand he was an absolute insecure moronic bore ... i have way more fun now and i would never tell my neighbour or my dentist or the girl who gives me a full body massage or the guys i dance with... and when i feel their excitement... i feel somewhat flattered and dirty... nice but because of my experiences with the jealous boyfriend it took me ages before i realised i could trust my Husband about this though some boring people with stringent strict and narrow points of view can do so much damage and limit joyful freedom if you let them.

kitteninneed -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 7:12:47 AM)
I used to be highly offended when people would rape me with their eyes (nasty fat men leering at your breasts and licking their lips suggestively is vomit worthy), I've had several obscene phone calls over the years, including one where he called me about an ad for a dog I'd put in the paper and asked if it was the 'mother or daughter' speaking while I could hear obvious sounds of fapping in the background. Now I'm kind of glad that I look my age (out of that magical 'hot 18' stage), that I'm slightly overweight, and that I tend to share my boyfriend's clothing since they're super comfortable. No one leers at my breasts unless I'm at the beach and showing them off. If it's great.

ranja -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 7:46:56 AM)
put it that way and yes... i have felt embarrassed too... there is obviously a difference in accidentally notice someone with a sexy interest in you... or not even notice but just suspect a bit... and some pervert actually advertising the fact they think your tits and butt are yummy as grossly obvious as they can make it. Same for you... you can enjoy the sexy feeling of the shoe shop assistant caressing your feet... or you can try and put your feet in his crotch... i suppose the difference is between subtle and crass subtle ethical? crass unethical? some guy once yelled across the street at me that i had the biggest tits he'd ever seen... what the fuck? i yelled back; they're by far not as big as your mouth... freak i won it does take some skill you have to learn though and indeed a lot of young girls who come of age all of the sudden get this sexual attention that sometimes is totally unexpected, maybe misplaced and unwanted and awful

submitting4U -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 7:56:33 AM)
Fetish life is objectification in its own right and sexual desire is primordial and not exactly a cognitive function that we manufacture... Guilt or shame, the result of social mores impacting one's psyche, can modulate our behaviors ... Keep fantasy pure and act upon it safely ...

LadyConstanze -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 9:47:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kitteninneed I used to be highly offended when people would rape me with their eyes (nasty fat men leering at your breasts and licking their lips suggestively is vomit worthy), I've had several obscene phone calls over the years, including one where he called me about an ad for a dog I'd put in the paper and asked if it was the 'mother or daughter' speaking while I could hear obvious sounds of fapping in the background. I guess we are very different in that respect, asking one of the guys who undress you with their eyes "Anything wrong or why are you staring?" Tends to stop them dead in their tracks - or stares. It also gives you back some power, because you took charge, it will translate to a much more confident body language and those guys pick up those signals. They hardly ever do it to somebody who will stare back and embarrass them. Having spent most of my teens in oversized shapeless sweaters because I'm hourglass shaped and dreaded comments and looks at my boobs, I'm now much more comfortable in my own body and I will wear what I want, not the stuff that's cut to the navel and showed that I had a recent wax, but I'm not disguising my shape in stuff anymore that makes me look like a walking tent. The looks I get now are different and seriously not offensive, the most offensive thing I got was a slightly drunk guy saying "Great tits" and I looked back at him and said "Wow, you don't get out much!" He blushed and walked off. I prefer it this way. If you're happy with yourself, you get less shit! Those leery idiots only do it when they think they can get away with it, once challenged they run, tail between their legs like a puppy who's been told off!

Wheldrake -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 10:55:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha I write erotica knowing it is erotica so the result is not offensive to me. Glad to hear it! My feelings about my own writing are the same. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha If a person is purposely doing something with the intent to obtain sexual gratification from the other person without the other person ever knowing they are being somewhat manipulated, is that unethical? I suppose that's the more specific question. I still think it comes down to what the person being manipulated perceives, and how it affects him or her. Your two examples bring out the distinctions involved rather nicely. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha For example, a foot fetishist gets a job at a shoe store and spends all day touching the feet of women, and may at times be sexually aroused by it, but the woman has no knowledge. Is that unethical? If she NOTICES the erection, is it then unethical? As long as he does his job professionally, and the woman has no way of knowing he's aroused, I don't see how there could possibly be a problem. His arousal doesn't affect her day at all, so it's effectively victimless. Even if the erection becomes visible to her, I don't know if I'd go as far as "unethical". In a perfect world, where women never had to worry that an aroused male stranger might be planning to assault them and sex itself was universally seen as good clean fun rather than something sinful and repugnant, the woman could probably be expected to smile and take the guy's hard-on as a minor compliment. In the real world, enough women would probably be disconcerted that I would consider sporting a visible erection in this situation to be a rude lapse of self-control (not to mention a poor sales strategy). But actually unethical? Borderline, I guess. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha A woman purposely leaves a box in a place where she knows that she will be able to ask her handsome neighbor to pick it up and take it up into the rafters and he will comply, but she does so simply because she has a fetish for his body or his ass in the jeans (I picked something random, but you get the idea). He just thinks he is helping out, but she's doing it all with the strict intent to sexually objectify him in her head. To me, the issue here is less the sexual arousal than the fact that the woman is making the poor handsome neighbour expend time and effort on a contrived and pointless task. She'd probably feel terrible if he fell down the attic stairs in the process, too. So I'll go with "slightly unethical" for this one. quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha It's been an interesting read, this thread. You're not getting turned on by it, are you?[;)]

TheCabal -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 2:09:51 PM)
quote: I write erotica knowing it is erotica so the result is not offensive to me. I am talking more about situations where a person may be "using" another person sexually without their knowledge at all. For example, a foot fetishist gets a job at a shoe store and spends all day touching the feet of women, and may at times be sexually aroused by it, but the woman has no knowledge. Is that unethical? If she NOTICES the erection, is it then unethical? A woman purposely leaves a box in a place where she knows that she will be able to ask her handsome neighbor to pick it up and take it up into the rafters and he will comply, but she does so simply because she has a fetish for his body or his ass in the jeans (I picked something random, but you get the idea). He just thinks he is helping out, but she's doing it all with the strict intent to sexually objectify him in her head. If a person is purposely doing something with the intent to obtain sexual gratification from the other person without the other person ever knowing they are being somewhat manipulated, is that unethical? I suppose that's the more specific question. It's been an interesting read, this thread. Akasha I think 'unethical' might be the wrong word... it's too absolute for the scenarios you're talking about. Take your shoe clerk. You're sitting in a chair, he comes by with a pair of shoes, and you notice he's aroused. Now, is he aroused because he's a foot fetishist, or is he aroused because his co-worker just made him an offer that you're not aware of? There's not really any way for you to know, sitting there in that chair. In short, in order to answer the ethics question for someone else, you've got to get inside their head and fully understand what is motivating them. So let's change the question around a bit. If you were to come in here and state: "I'm a foot fetishist, and I want to get a job in a shoe store so I can play with people's feet all day, do you think that's wrong?" To be honest, I'd probably tell you that everyone deserves to enjoy their job. Just be careful not to creep out your customers. To me that's where the line is: not what goes on inside your own head, but what you actually do to someone else. If they're completely unaware that something's up, then you've done no harm, and not crossed any sort of line, ethical or otherwise.

Focus50 -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/18/2011 2:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? Objectify? As in not a day goes by when I don't spot what I consider to be a highly spankable butt getting about - even if it is owned by some boring vanilla type? I don't think it unethical so much as proof my heart's still pumping blood in a gooder way than usual. And butt-spotting isn't nearly so hazardous to my health as for those who ogle boobs.... Focus.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/19/2011 3:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness No, it's none of their goddamned business and if I jerk off while talking to them and they have no idea, that's a tribute to my ability to keep my breathing steady, not a violation of their fundamental rights. This question sounds like the kind of stupid crap militant feminists go on about. IE. Stupid. Yes. Stupid feminist crap is stupid. More like a tribute to your desperation, really nothing to brag about. I mean being proud that you can jerk off quietly while you're on the phone to somebody who's unaware that you are so desperate, that's a bit sad, and if you find that brag worthy, it only shows that you really don't have much else to brag about... Maybe that's the root of your problem with feminists? Now get over your fear of women, it's alright if you have an inferiority complex but you don't need to shout it from the rooftops.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/19/2011 3:52:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheCabal I think 'unethical' might be the wrong word... it's too absolute for the scenarios you're talking about. Take your shoe clerk. You're sitting in a chair, he comes by with a pair of shoes, and you notice he's aroused. Now, is he aroused because he's a foot fetishist, or is he aroused because his co-worker just made him an offer that you're not aware of? There's not really any way for you to know, sitting there in that chair. To inject some reality, if the guy is halfway smart and wants to keep his job, he'll dress in a way that won't make his arousal too obvious, else he would be out of a paycheck and a way to fulfill his fetish. Also you possibly get the best service ever and he will make sure he picks nice shoes, I'd love to have a hair dresser who is a hair fetishist, most hair dressers are too eager to cut too much off... Vast difference to somebody jerking off on the phone while talking to another person, that's a direct involvement and not consensual, the shoe salesman enjoys his job and does his job, the phone jerk is a freaking idiot who's too cheap to call a sex hotline, a bit like a peeping tom with binoculars who might argue "If my neighbour doesn't see me, I'm not doing any harm..." Edited to snip the quote, it was too long

ranja -> RE: Is it unethical to sexually objectify someone without them knowing it? (5/19/2011 6:37:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheCabal Take your shoe clerk. You're sitting in a chair, he comes by with a pair of shoes, and you notice he's aroused. To inject some reality; what is the customer doing looking at the sales assistant's crotch anyway?... objectifying him??? next the customer might blurt out: jee, that's the biggest bulge i've ever seen to which the sales assistant might reply: i bet it would easily fit your mouth ... the last line is going too far isn't it?

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