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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep it in their Pants?


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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 1:03:07 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve


quote:

tweakabelle
Rape is crime of violence. Period.


quote:

Does it result in pregnancy or not?

I've seen a lot of violence, a lot fights between men, I can't recall even one that ended in rape - probably happens in prison frequently, but then there are no women there.

It's all sex, people who have sex reproduce, people who reproduce pass on the traits that led them to reproduce, and the trait is passed on exponentially - it's how natural selection works.


The argument appears to be: Male-to-male violence doesn't result in rape (in your experience) therefore all rape is sexual.

Pure gibberish. I know 10 year olds who could do better than that.

Has it occurred to you that the dynamics of male-on-female violence might vary from male-to-male violence? Have you either accounted for or eliminated this possibility? No. Tut! Tut! not terribly 'scientific' of you.
Are the dynamics of male-on-female violence different? Of course they are. Already your theory fails as a 'scientific' theory.

quote:

If it results in pregnancy, it's a reproduction strategy, regardless of how you feel about it, how violent or horrible it is. Right an wrong have nothing to do with it as a biological strategy, "rape as violence" is a political meme, not a scientific theory - might have something to do with it, but  the emotional states of either rapist or victim have nothing to do with the biology of reproduction in the basic, biological sense - as for planning, when has that ever been an obstacle to reproduction?


Coercion, intimidation, violence or the threat of violence is present in 100% of rapes - by definition. The chances of pregnancy from a random sexual encounter are usually estimated at about 3-5%. We can reasonably assume the chances of pregnancy-from-rape are roughly the same as those in a random sexual encounter.

So, as the basis for your 'scientific' approach, we are being asked to ignore what happens in 100% of rapes and instead focus exclusively on an accidental outcome that happens in c3-5% of cases.

As science this is pure trash. Undiluted trash. I can't imagine a scientific setting where this would be taken seriously. This approach would be laughed out of the room before you got to finish the sentence if it was ever presented to real scientists. If one of my students based an argument on such idiocy - they would be failed automatically.

Even assessing it from a common sense perspective it is pure trash.

And that's without even mentioning little things like oral rape, anal rape, male-on-male or female-on-female rape - which your 'theory' cannot possibly account for.

Unless you can present something better than this, I am not going to bother responding in future. If I wanted to discuss things at kindergarten level I would get a job in a kindergarten, not post here. Please abandon your nonsense and re-think the issue. You're embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone's time.

To get you started on re-thinking the issue, please focus on what happens in 100% of rapes - coercion, intimidation and violence. (Potentially reproductive sex does not occur in 100% of rape cases)

quote:

If what you're doing isn't working, and then you might consider doing something else - it's hard to fight phantoms, and sacrificing the occasional goat, while it might make you feel better, is not known to be very effective either.

One of the reasons why we haven't been terribly successful at eliminating rapes is that until the advent of feminist criminology, people viewed rape as primarily as sexual act. It was only when feminist analyses gained widespread acceptance that rape was seen as primarily an act of violence.

I'd suggest studying some feminist analyses of rape and violence would benefit you enormously and aid your re-thinking of the issue immeasurably.

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(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 1:53:57 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

 Men are the problem in the world.

Let's just eliminate that issue so that society can finally work.

The evidence is indisputable here.



My! I had no idea you were a lesbian-separatist!

But are you going way too far here? And is any one else actually saying that? Not that I've seen. You might be arguing with imaginary man-haters, phantoms, delusions.

By and large, there are many good males and many good females. And lots of good everyone-elses! There are some bad males ( a minority) and bad females(a minority) and even some bad everyone-elses (surprise! they're a minority too!).

There is no relationship between a person's gender and their inherent goodness/badness that I know of.

On this particular issue - sexual slavery - it's simply a fact that most of those enslaved are female (or children) and most of the slave traffickers are male. It's also a fact that most men find sex slavery abhorrent. It's also a fact that there are women involved in sex trafficking. And it's also a fact that the overwhelming majority of clients - the people whose money feeds the demand for trafficked women and children - are males.

I don't see any one is disputing any of the above here. So can we please have an end to this pointless "Oh we are all victims us poor males" carping? Or the senseless suggestions that any one is engaged in a male-baiting or -blaming exercise? If you're unwilling to take the issues seriously go elsewhere.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/29/2011 2:03:51 AM >

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(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 2:01:20 AM   
Edwynn


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Wow.

You were doing so good up until the utterly incoherent last paragraph.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/29/2011 2:02:48 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 2:24:50 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

do you know any prostitutes? Ever talked to one?
i can do you one better. i was a fucking prostitute for 2 years.

quote:

the pro/john relationship is not significant different on the face of it
except for the fact that they are utterly and totally fucking different once you scratch the surface.

quote:

they still demand a modicum of respect and human feeling
and almost never see even the slightest fucking sign of it.

if you have any other ill-founded theories about prostitutes and prostitution you'd like to fucking verify, feel free to ask, i'd be happy as fuck to set you straight.

_____________________________

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i hope you enjoyed the post, and as always my friends....have a nice day

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 3:15:23 AM   
Isambard


Posts: 18
Joined: 12/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



Men are the problem in the world.

Let's just eliminate that issue so that society can finally work.

The evidence is indisputable here.






Actually, this is kind of true. Men are responsible for most of the violent crime, as near all the rape as makes no difference and are strangely fascinated by war. (Let me explain. I *know* war is hell, and that most men in the trenches just want to get done and go home. Moreover, I believe that 90% of the wars ever fought were ghastly wastes of lives and treasures that didn't do anyone any good. But I am *still* fascinated by swordplay, by military history, etc. This shows you how strong a hold it has on the male psyche) War probably would not exist without the male drive towards it.
But on the other hand, most creations with moving parts probably would not exist without certain other male drives.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 3:19:35 AM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline 		nm :)

< Message edited by DeviantlyD -- 6/29/2011 3:21:05 AM >

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 6:59:31 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The argument appears to be: Male-to-male violence doesn't result in rape (in your experience) therefore all rape is sexual.

Pure gibberish. I know 10 year olds who could do better than that.

Has it occurred to you that the dynamics of male-on-female violence might vary from male-to-male violence? Have you either accounted for or eliminated this possibility? No. Tut! Tut! not terribly 'scientific' of you.
Are the dynamics of male-on-female violence different? Of course they are. Already your theory fails as a 'scientific' theory.
No the argument is that reproductive activity is reproductive strategy, regardless of whatever else it may be - is rape violence as well - this is largely indisputable but the one does not axiomatically preclude the other which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Calling me names does not alter that, it isn't an argument.

quote:

Coercion, intimidation, violence or the threat of violence is present in 100% of rapes - by definition. The chances of pregnancy from a random sexual encounter are usually estimated at about 3-5%. We can reasonably assume the chances of pregnancy-from-rape are roughly the same as those in a random sexual encounter.

So, as the basis for your 'scientific' approach, we are being asked to ignore what happens in 100% of rapes and instead focus exclusively on an accidental outcome that happens in c3-5% of cases.
I said it wasn't a particularly successful strategy - but let's accept your premise for the sake of argument - wait - what exactly is your premise?

Men are assholes? Explain, I'd like to get a concise grasp of your hypothesis, and how exactly you think it will lead to more effective rape prevention strategies.

Do you have a hypothesis?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 7:36:40 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

do you know any prostitutes? Ever talked to one?
i can do you one better. i was a fucking prostitute for 2 years.

quote:

the pro/john relationship is not significant different on the face of it
except for the fact that they are utterly and totally fucking different once you scratch the surface.

quote:

they still demand a modicum of respect and human feeling
and almost never see even the slightest fucking sign of it.

if you have any other ill-founded theories about prostitutes and prostitution you'd like to fucking verify, feel free to ask, i'd be happy as fuck to set you straight.
As I say, my evidence is anecdotal, confined to Two cities, Albuquerque NM and Jacksonville Fl, which are demographically similar, I've never been to the UK, and my experience in other cities is confined to the occasional stripper, and whatever I incidentally observed streetside - in Jacksonville I worked in a bar, a freidn of one of the barmaids was a prostitute, she turned tricks to make money to take care of her daughter, dont know her whole history, that'ss a pretty violent town, Florida in general has an above average rape rate, and lot's of women walking around with their Two front teeth missing. "It's the water" they told me.

In Albuquerque, I worked in an adult book and video store, where some locations had booths for masturbation, others had, additionally, a small theater, and these locations were located in centers of prostitution, both female and male, as well as "cruisers" - the prostitutes were generally tolerated, as long as they kept it outside on the street, and I regularly conversed with several of them, and had a chance to observe street activity along what was a fairly busy street - the cruisers were actively hated and persecuted, and part of the job was kicking them out, as they would go around knocking on the doors of the booths, soliciting, which put the business, and my job at risk.

Inside the theater, it was Sodom and Gomorrah, quite the diverse and energetic crowd, and very hard to tell sometimes what was going on, pass around girls and men and general orgying, I think it's shut down now, but a lot of people came just to hook up.

What goes on in the crack motels, or the alleys, or anywhere else, I have no way of knowing, other than I know it isn't all sunshine and flowers, some of those women are pretty hard, my only point was, you can't stereotype prostitutes anymore than you can stereotype anybody else, and "victim" is a stereotype as much as anything else - some are, some are not - if they're victims, one imagines they would jump at the chance to escape, they don't do that as much as you ("you" as in, the hypothetically average person) might think, which applies to dancers as well.

Presumably, eventually, many do, one way or the other.

I mean, is it or is it not an economic option for women - or men for that matter - regardless of how else you subjectively characterize it? If a person does become a prostitute, do they suddenly become something other than human? Do they cease to feel human emotions? Are they now OK with being treated inhumanely? Most Johns know this is not true, and act accordingly, many do not, I'm sure, but there we're back to male behavior in general - I've seen some prostitutes treated better than some guys treat their wives, that's all.

The notion seems to be that I am characterizing women as ambulatory holes, and men as ambulatory erections, what I'm trying to establish is that there is a layer of social behavior on top of an underlying substrate of biological behavior, and distinguish the ways in which the two interact, because together, the comprise "human behavior", and it's helpful to know where one ends and the other begins, or even if you can compartmentalize it like that.

(in reply to HannahLynHeather)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 8:13:41 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

I'd like to get a concise grasp of your hypothesis, and how exactly you think it will lead to more effective rape prevention strategies. Do you have a hypothesis?


What rape is has already been made clear to you a number of times. I have emphasised it and repeated it for you, spelt it out in terms a 10 year old could grasp. Clearly some people don't possess the equipment needed to comprehend it.

For the last time here it is: Rape is crime of violence. Get your head around that and then you might be able to graduate to more complicated things.

I'm done repeating myself for you. Welcome to ignore.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/29/2011 8:31:53 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 3:49:44 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I'd like to get a concise grasp of your hypothesis, and how exactly you think it will lead to more effective rape prevention strategies. Do you have a hypothesis?


What rape is has already been made clear to you a number of times. I have emphasised it and repeated it for you, spelt it out in terms a 10 year old could grasp. Clearly some people don't possess the equipment needed to comprehend it.

For the last time here it is: Rape is crime of violence. Get your head around that and then you might be able to graduate to more complicated things.

I'm done repeating myself for you. Welcome to ignore.
Oh, so you're the decider?

If that's your stance, you need not bother responding to any of my posts on the subject any longer, I like to look at things from every angle.

So to clarify, the premise is that sexual contact is similar in a way to hunger - another biological need, you don't need sex to live, but natural selection favors the sexually active, and the more sexually active you are the more it favors you, so to some extent, it is similar to other compulsions, such as hunger.

In the hunger analogy, you need to consume calories in order to maintain your metabolic function, but hardly anybody eats simply to "sustain their metabolic function" - there are quite a few things that go into it, and everybody has their preferences - like right now, I've been under a lot of stress, and my stomach is growling, I'm starving, haven't eaten all day, but I have no appetite, nothing sounds good to me.

Normally, I'd be thinking Chinese or Mexican? Fish or a nice Ribeye (if it's on sale)? Italian maybe, Sausage or Chicken? Usually I know want I want, my stomach rumbles and a vision of  a plate of enchilada's pops into my head, I go thaw out some sauce, or head for the diner, and usually, if I want something like Mexican, a double Cheeseburger will make a turd, but it's not going to be as satisfying.

Sex is something like that, for myself anyway, I like to have an emotional attachment to somebody, I've had one night stands, but if I have a choice of picking a stranger out of a crowd for sex now, or waiting a few days or weeks, or months even, to have sex with somebody I like, I'll opt for the delayed gratification.

And that, I think is pretty average, for both males and females, I'm not super outgoing, so when I have had sex on short notice, with somebody I just met, she's usually the aggressor - it's not my usual MO, but I can be had - now I've never had a woman throw me down on the bed and take me - had a neighbor a while back that damned near raped me, ended up doing her on the front porch in fact, but she was probably big enough, she had 50 pounds on me, an army vet, and she probably could have used force if she had wanted to - luckily, it was a weak moment for me, and she didn't have to force me.

So I don't even remember where I was going with that, except maybe that some people pay for what they eat, others like to steal, it's been that way forever, probably always will be that way, so pay attention and watch yourself.

My worst experience ever was with a woman who had been raped, but didn't tell me about it - she was a mad flirt, it was nonstop with her, and I'd spent the previous night at her place, but we ended up at my place. I had a roll of duct tape on the bedside table form some other shit I was doing, and threatened (playfully) to tie her up - next thing I know, she's coming at me like a steam engine, kicking and scratching, I just cleared her way to the door and steered her in that direction -  it was just a bad scene all around, turned out she was off her meds too, bipolar, another fact she failed to inform me of, so between that and the PTSD, I never even got a chance to reconcile the whole business with her, and she was a real sweetheart too.

Anyway, what I learned from that was to ask if there are any issues I should be aware of before things start getting hot and heavy - another reason I like to get to know somebody a little bit first.

That, and don't suggest bondage till the Third date, at least.



(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/29/2011 5:56:29 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I'd like to get a concise grasp of your hypothesis, and how exactly you think it will lead to more effective rape prevention strategies. Do you have a hypothesis?


What rape is has already been made clear to you a number of times. I have emphasised it and repeated it for you, spelt it out in terms a 10 year old could grasp. Clearly some people don't possess the equipment needed to comprehend it.

For the last time here it is: Rape is crime of violence. Get your head around that and then you might be able to graduate to more complicated things.

I'm done repeating myself for you. Welcome to ignore.
Oh, so you're the decider?

If that's your stance, you need not bother responding to any of my posts on the subject any longer, I like to look at things from every angle.




Gosh I thought you knew. Tweetybelle is the (self proclaimed) arbiter of all that is true and good. Congratulations on earning her ignore...you no longer need to face her harsh judgement and the knee knocking fear that she might ...gasp!...declare you wrong.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Sex Slavery in The US: Why can't American Men Keep ... - 6/30/2011 7:26:03 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah, well, she's the one made the point that meaning is separate from the symbol - but whatever.

In this case, the urge to have sex is the basis for all reproductive strategy - thus even homosexual sex is a reproductive strategy, even though it never leads to reproduction, the urge arises from the same set of traits - it's similar to hunger, but in neither case does it necessarily add or subtract from whatever other meanings are assigned to the act of assuaging it, other than it is presumably assuaged.

I think I included the anecdotes above to illustrate the closest analogs I have in my experience to the experience of rape, and they aren't even in the same ballpark - thus I can't even attempt to characterize what somebody else feels emotionally about it, and I would not presume to do so - you cannot argue with a perception like that, it is what it is, it is violence but behaviorally, it doesn't resemble other form of violence, which are typically about survival (hunting and defense) or alpha hierarchy sorting, so much as it resembles other forms of reproductive activity.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 292
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