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Definitions - 10/10/2004 7:42:16 PM   
Mercnbeth


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So often newcomers (or newbies) to this lifestyle are confused by the words that are used to describe and define the various aspects of BDSM, D/s and M/s relationships. Then they are further confused by people who claim to have experience giving them a definition and then telling them that it is flexible and can mean whatever the user wants it to mean. This slave knows, because she is a new-comer to this life and was very confused in the beginning with the variety of “definitions” people have for the same words. Fortunately, Master has a lot of experience to learn from and also, He encouraged His slave to attend local group functions, do research and interact with groups on the internet as well. Unfortunately, there are quite a few with knowledge of these terms that use them to describe their relationships who feel offended or personally attacked whenever a definition is offered that conflicts with their own, or a question is asked about why they use the terms they do to describe themselves or their relationship. Obviously, the terminology of things became even more important when people began using computers to be “online negotiators” in conducting BDSM practices, M/s and D/s relationships and using words(and, of course webcams as time progressed) as the means of conducting their activities. BDSM “jargon” is easy enough to throw around with little actual physical knowledge of the acts or the relationship dynamics themselves. That can be potentially dangerous and/or harmful to a newbie. This slave has noticed on several message boards that it has become common for people to justify any statement or reply to a question they make simply by asserting that it is their opinion, offering no basis or foundation for their statement, as if there is no basic truth to any definition. Certain people tend to regard a request for “definitions” as some sort of attempt to invalidate the person being asking for them. For example, this slave could say “I am a Master of a slave who permits me to tie her up only on Friday nights and flog her until she yells her safeword at which time I am expected to stop. Every other aspect of our lives could be indentical to that of a vanilla relationship, but just because we take what we want from this lifestyle of ideas and practices and apply it to our vanilla lives and call it whatever we want because it works for us, does not mean that, in truth, we have the first clue to the dynamics of a Master/slave relationship. if this slave wants, she can declare that she is gay and participate in gay chat rooms and groups, giving advice and “opinions” about this slave’s gay lifestyle, even go out to gay bars and community events and try to make friends there, amongst my “peers”, but the homosexual community there aren’t going to think much of this slave’s declaration of homosexuality or dedication to the community if this slave is not in any way, nor has been, nor ever intends to be attracted to the same sex as myself. We could have discussions about defining “gay” and this slave could say that in this slave’s opinion, gay means attracted to the opposite sex, that this slave could care less if anyone agreed with this slave or not. This slave could go on a one-woman crusade to change every meaning in the English dictionary so that all words would forever from this point forward mean only what the person speaking them considers them to mean, regardless of the definitions that are accepted by people speaking the same language, which would then return our conversations to a litany of grunts and noises that no one else understands but ourselves.
sincerely,
beth
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RE: Definitions - 10/10/2004 8:43:37 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
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quote:

This slave has noticed on several message boards that it has become common for people to justify any statement or reply to a question they make simply by asserting that it is their opinion, offering no basis or foundation for their statement, as if there is no basic truth to any definition.


I often add IMHO to a post so that it isn't misconstrued as fact or as my saying it is the only way. For many BDSM terms there are as many definitions as there are people using that term IMHO.

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Definitions - 10/10/2004 10:57:48 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
Joined: 7/20/2004
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this girl has been staying off this forum for just this reason. Thank Y/you Merc and beth for addressing it so well. she pointed out in one of her posts she has always found it best to apply Socratic logic when discussing anything, define terms first. Within the BDSM community certain words have their own colloquial meaning...ie:slave. And everything always makes more sense in context. Yes the word slave remains the same, but in a different context it means something completely different. World History class for instance...chuckles. she truly thinks that by and large this colloquial definition of slave is fairly concrete within the BDSM community, however mis or rather over applied it may be online.
The only point in which she will not disagree but cock her head too is that she thinks many people get too attached to the terms. As if the terms themselves have some magickal power that they do not possess. she thinks this too is a slippery slope. And she has seen many the pissing match over who is the "real" sub, slave, grand poohba et all. Personally she is never offended or feels it lowers her personal status if anyone calls themselves anything...as the hobby horse said to the Velveteen Rabbit..."You know what is real, because it just is real." And even in our many faceted community people still know inside themselves what they are or aren't...and the mirror is always a much harsher critic and teacher then this little one could ever be.

Again, ya'll consistently have the most thought provoking, enlightening and insightful posts, and this girl for one enjoys everything Y/you have to say. Be well.
sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to proudsub)
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RE: Definitions - 10/10/2004 11:11:42 PM   
BigBadVoodooDadd


Posts: 29
Joined: 6/23/2004
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Well, I've been in the lifestyle for a while now. Longer than most actually with almost 10 years under my belt. During all that time I have always thought of the BDSM terms and definitions to be flexible to interpretation. We all know that it is encompasses Bondage and Discipline, Domination/submission as well as the Sadism/Masochism aspects of the lifestye but no one has really been able to find a clear definition of what is included in those aspects. I mean when you think about it we as a community have not been able to figure out what the BDSM lifestyle as a whole means and what kinks are included. Some say anything that is not vanilla but then again what is not vanilla?

I think that people are too much focused on the rules and the deffinitions than what really is important and that is what you feel like. If you define yourself as a slave and you trully feel like you are then why does anyone elses oppinion matter?

I am a Dom and I have been a Master for about a year now but what made me a Master is having a slave and not actually identifying myself as one. As a friend of mine told me a bit ago... A Master without a slave is just some guy with a limp flogger... so having a slave made me a Master but being a Dom is what I was and how I identified myself.

Now what you are getting at is actually not definitions of the lifestyle or the definitions within the BDSM but actually issues of people being in the lifestyle, or identifying themselves, under false pretences. That is sadly human nature I guess and you can not do anything about it at this moment. When we run across someone that is presenting themselves as something we know they are not we should voice that out but nothing else we can really do.


I hope that this helps!

BBVD

(in reply to proudsub)
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RE: Definitions - 10/10/2004 11:28:07 PM   
bottominwa


Posts: 240
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BBVD,

The girl agrees entirely with Your contention that anyone else's opinion of Y/you should never alter who or what Y/you are. Opinions are like assholes, we all have them and most of them stink. she also thinks though that the contention begins when the word "feel" is applied. You said if someone "feels" like they are something then they are something. she thinks this is where the whole argument begins. she could wake up tomorrow and "feel" 5'10 and waify..yet the mirror...well it would hold a slightly shorter curvy little thing. Reality is not perception although that is a point we could argue to death....and she thinks this is where most of the pissing matches start...for this one though, life is just too damn short and precious to care at all what anyone but the mirror or her House tells her she is or is not. It would seem that there is a lot of bending of reality online. Certain groups throw around the word honor haphazardly also..but again, thinking never made anything so..no matter what Horatio said. In the end, it is always a question of why does this bother you, if it does? And she thinks that too often it is just an attachment to terms, be there 5 million or 5 true slaves online or otherwise there is still only ONE in her house..and that is all that matters.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to BigBadVoodooDadd)
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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 12:26:56 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
Hello Beth,

Lewis Caroll said all you need to know about this a long time ago:

"When I use a word", Humpty Dumpty said... "It means just what I chose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is", said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is", said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -that's all."


Which is to be master, the word, or the speaker? In a subculture that counts power as one of its favorite playthings, nobody is going to let a word have any. If someone thinks that "Master" or "slave" has more cache than dominant or submissive (as in your "nearly vanilla" Master/slave couple above) then they're damn well a Master (capital M intentional) and a slave. They aren't going to be willing to say, not even for a nanosecond, "I'm not that cool sounding thing". That would be giving the word power, and giving up power to a word just ain't going to happen around these parts.

Online interaction is a free-for-all. People come to it from all kinds of backgrounds (or no background at all). Its anonymous nature allows people to reinvent themselves on a whim. You can be whomever you want to say you are, and who is to say any different? Having terms mean more or less the same thing is one of the characteristics of a culture, but the "BDSM" universe (especially as represented online) is too diverse to really be called a culture at all. If you tried to distill it down to something that we all share as a community, about the best that you would be able to come up with is that we have a common penchant for sexuality that includes things other than the missionary position. Hardly does that a community make.

Among close groups of my own kind, terms like Master, slave, etc. mean something very specific. When I use those terms in conversation among close friends of mine, we mean pretty much the same thing. Among us, they aren't wide open to intepretation so that anyone can "be that", just because they say they are. Having that commonality is nice. It makes communication easier, and provides some kind of standard by which behavior may be judged. You'll never have that commonality on a site as wide open as this one. You'll just frustrate yourself trying. It all really does come back to the point that Mr. Caroll was making above.


< Message edited by Leonidas -- 10/11/2004 5:59:27 AM >


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Leonidas

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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 9:40:33 AM   
EStrict


Posts: 729
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This is an old topic that comes up often. What it boils down to is the simple fact that words change... definitions change... and the reality is, in something that is not *mainstream*, often more than one definition is being applied to the same word with it taking a much longer time for the changes to be accepted.

This is nothing new, or even anything having to do with BDSM. I mean, look at one of the early posts in this string. Sabrina decided to *cock* her head. What logic is there in a word who's earliest meaning (twelfth century's *a domestic male fowl*) still applies to have added such varied meanings as:

Nouns: Man's body part (penis)
A device for regulating the flow of liquids.
The hammer in the lock of a firing arm.
A chief person.
A person of spirit and often of a certain swagger or arrogance.
Tilt, slant.
A small pile (as of hay)

Transitive verbs:
To put into cocks (as of hay)

Intransitives:
To turn, tip, or stick up.
To set erect.

So,, if such a simple word has evolved into so many different meanings, why is it surprising people can have more than one meaning for the words we use when discussing bdsm? Oh, and to those who are hooked on their current definitions,,,, well, reality is when a word is accepted as *current usage* for long enough it is incorporated in it's new form eventually.. even when that meaning may make little sense when comparing it to other definitions of the same word.

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Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 11:14:30 AM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
I absolutely agree with Leo, of course. Although I've got to say that there are going to be language and definition variances within the lifestyle. While they may not agree, I don't believe they must be a basis for disagreement. So it becomes an issue, within the life/style (with all the subcultures that exist), of good manners, common sense, and developing a communication.

quote:

Leonidas

Online interaction is a free-for-all. People come to it from all kinds of backgrounds (or no background at all). Its anonymous nature allows people to reinvent themselves on a whim. You can be whomever you want to say you are, and who is to say any different? Having terms mean more or less the same thing is one of the characteristics of a culture,...


The downside is that it can be incredibly frustrating. However we can choose when, where, and who we interact with to minimize that.

quote:

beth

This slave has noticed on several message boards that it has become common for people to justify any statement or reply to a question they make simply by asserting that it is their opinion, offering no basis or foundation for their statement, as if there is no basic truth to any definition.


Ask them what they are basing their statement or opinion on. If they have posted it on the boards, they're bound to have something to back it up. If they don't, well....oops. I'm still amazed by the whole Gor triad thing.


_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 12:21:06 PM   
RogueDom


Posts: 21
Joined: 10/8/2004
Status: offline
LOL it is confusing troll and trolling have different meanings on aol msn and yahoo. It is a reflection of our language...bad is good Hot is cool the list goes on and on, it will get worse too my kids and their friends have definitions of words I've used all my life that are different..I just smile and nod lol...........

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 12:34:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

This slave could go on a one-woman crusade to change every meaning in the English dictionary so that all words would forever from this point forward mean only what the person speaking them considers them to mean, regardless of the definitions that are accepted by people speaking the same language,


I understand what you are saying beth. And I feel your frustration to a point. But in the end, if we all were predefined by what we identified as, how boring would that be? Huxley and Orwell through their writings, in their own ways have shown us that Utopia isn't all it's cracked up to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL Aldous Huxley - Brave New World (1932)

But one of the students was fool enough to ask where the advantage lay.

"My good boy!" The Director wheeled sharply round on him. "Can't you see? Can't you see?" He raised a hand; his expression was solemn. "Bokanovsky's Process is one of the major instruments of social stability!"

Major instruments of social stability.

Standard men and women; in uniform batches. The whole of a small factory staffed with the products of a single bokanovskified egg.

"Ninety-six identical twins working ninety-six identical machines!" The voice was almost tremulous with enthusiasm. "You really know where you are. For the first time in history."

He quoted the planetary motto. "Community, Identity, Stability." Grand words. "If we could bokanovskify indefinitely the whole problem would be solved."

Solved by standard Gammas, unvarying Deltas, uniform Epsilons. Millions of identical twins. The principle of mass production at last applied to biology.


__________________________

One of the most beautiful things in the world is an intelligent conversation where barriers are lowered, where communication flows, where ideas and opinions are exchanged with mutual respect and most importantly where we learn to discover one another beyond those labels and titles we give one another.

These things that I am mean something to me that more then likely do not mean the same thing to anyone else...

I am a woman
I am a friend
I am a lover
I am a Mistress
I am a sadist
I am a cat's guardian
I am a daughter
I am a niece
I am a sister
I am a employee
I am a student
I am a teacher
I am a mentor
I am a coordinator
I am a contributor
I am a designer
I am an artist
I am a creator

I am a tease (according to sfgrrl - had to edit to add this to the list)

I am so much more than that...

I am me.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 10/11/2004 2:15:11 PM >


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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 1:09:33 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

One of the most beautiful things in the world is an intelligent conversation where barriers are lowered, where communication flows, where ideas and opinions are exchanged with mutual respect and most importantly where we learn to discover one another beyond those labels and titles we give one another.


Speaking of beautiful, Angelika, I didn't see "beautiful blonde maniac" on your list. You are, you know.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 2:19:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett
Speaking of beautiful, Angelika, I didn't see "beautiful blonde maniac" on your list. You are, you know.


Takes one to know one you beautiful maniac you!

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 2:37:33 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
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It's the mutual maniac admiration society!

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

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RE: Definitions - 10/11/2004 7:37:34 PM   
ShadeDiva


Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline
I agree with Estrict's points.

I am often to be found saying that language is not static - it never has been, it never will be, and it puzzles me why folks seem to struggle against that. That is one of the beauties of language - that it's adaptable, that it's ever-changing, and diverse and complex, and layered and so full of nuance.

Why people seem to want to strip all that away - I just have never seemed to quite manage to grasp.

I'm blunt. I'm literal. I use a ton of words in a multitude of ways.

I told someone I cared about recently that I felt they really needed to argue with me more. They were astounded. What? You want me to fight with you? No, I would love it if you argued with me more. You never argue with me. You do what I want everytime I want it, always agree with me - you aren't submissive, you aren't submissive to me, I KNOW you don't always agree with me, NO one can (LOL), and yet you always bend to my opinion - I'd love to see you once in a while just say: Yanno what? No. I don't agree and this is why.

Needless to say, as most humans seem to do these days, they took it as a negative thing. Arguing is BAD. Arguing is NOT GOOD. Arguing is fighting. And what's sad is that is so NOT TRUE.

After trying to get around their strange (to me) compelling desire to only see the term argue in a negative sense, even after saying no you simply don't agree and you are firm in your opinion... I resorted at last to ASK them ...exactly WHAT *do* you think the term "argue" really MEANS?

After they spit out a few negative terms I was flustered enough to just grab the dictionary and have them read both terms (it's listed twice in most of my dictionaries) and read every single definition argue has. There were twelve. I asked them which definition did they see this odd negative connotation they were determined to apply to this word. Amazingly (again, to me) they found a few they interpreted as being negative. I had them look up THOSE words, because they weren't remotely really negative either. There was only ONE definition of both listings of the term argue that had any sort of negativity about it, and that was the adjective hostile that was a part of a definition. It was the LAST definition. More like a footnote to me.

And yet the masses at large will perceive when you use the term argue in the correct contexts to be almost uniformly negative.

The problem I think, isn't really the language at all. It's humanity's at large relatively tenious grasp and command of it that seems to me to be the real root and the real issue here. We apply judgements where none is meant by reflecting our personal states onto words and granting them more meanings where they weren't meant. People simply don't know what the words they use actually *mean* in general. Rather than take a moment and pause and filter through all the ways that a word we are reacting to and then seeing what other contexts that word could be possibly used as, we react with a knee-jerk reaction.

But then that's hard to do if you really aren't all that familiar with all the things a word can mean. Thus the problem as I see it.

I have a HUGE vocabulary and I have a very good grasp of what words mean. You'd think this would HELP me communicate. It doesn't. It's actually a very large hinderance in my communication with other people. I would accurately use the term ignorant, when telling someone it's okay that they weren't aware of something, by saying, hey it's cool, you were ignorant of the fact that shouldn't work that way.

Yet this will get a very swift knee-jerk reaction and it will be largely negative. Because they will make it into a judgement call when in reality I was only meaning to say they had no knowledge of that was something they would need to have knowledge of.

So I modify myself - trying to find ways to bridge those gaps when I notice one might have occurred. It takes work, it takes effort. Sometimes it is irritating. Sometimes it's rewarding to be the person to help someone see that they weren't really seeing. But it's a two way street. If want someone to understand what I am trying to rely then I need to make that effort - no one said language or communicating with people was supposed to be *easy* after all - it is my inherant stubborness that makes me wish people would learn their language to a better degree than they should - because I'm wishing it wasn't so durn hard. But try as I might - I can't figure out where I got this silly notion that language and communication was ever meant or supposed to be an easy thing.

And even so, I don't want words stripped down to mean *only this* or *only that*. That would take some of their beauty away. Part of my fascination with text and words stems from their complexity - even if it means I have to struggle and work my ass off to convey accurately what I mean to convey. Eventually ... who knows? I might one day get it. lolol.

~ShadeDiva, who ADORES the fact that words have so many definitions and possiblities.



< Message edited by ShadeDiva -- 10/11/2004 7:38:15 PM >


_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to stef)
Profile   Post #: 14
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