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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 5:39:03 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Obama has to tell Netanyahu:

"You can have the US Alliance or you can have the West Bank, but you can't have both. If you choose the West Bank, you lose all US support. Get out now."

When Obama tells Israel that, that will be the beginning of a lasting peace. For as long as the US unconditionally guarantees Israel, Israeli intransigence and the theft of the West Bank will continue. And so will the conflict. Today's events have just made this all the clearer.



I think Israel's days of banking on US support might come to an end depending on what happens in the region.

_____________________________

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 5:47:31 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		This is not about Israel, this is about one man and his party, Netanyahu was a militant prior to his current stance, now in his position, he is continuing his own agenda, he does his country harm by exposing them to dangers based upon his own policies.

But ;


Beit Jala

It existed before perhaps it can exist again, unless of course religion has nothing to do with the ambitions of tyrants.

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 6:31:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

unless of course religion has nothing to do with the ambitions of tyrants.

In this case, religion has everything to do with the ambitions of tyrants.

The Land of Israel for the People of Israel according to the Torah of Israel

The Land of Israel defined

K.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 7:04:44 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Obama has to tell Netanyahu:

"You can have the US Alliance or you can have the West Bank, but you can't have both. If you choose the West Bank, you lose all US support. Get out now."

When Obama tells Israel that, that will be the beginning of a lasting peace. For as long as the US unconditionally guarantees Israel, Israeli intransigence and the theft of the West Bank will continue. And so will the conflict. Today's events have just made this all the clearer.



I think Israel's days of banking on US support might come to an end depending on what happens in the region.


There are some tentative signs of that. AIPAC's influence seems to be waning and organisations like JStreet will eventually supplant it. Obama is taking a far more realistic line towards Israel even if to date, his rhetoric has far outweighed his actions. I suspect Obama remembers the cavalier fashion in which Netanyahu et al dismissed him as a 'one-termer' and humiliated him publicly repeatedly. He'd be a fool not to, and, no matter what you think of Obama, he's nobody's fool.

More and more people and countries around the world have lost patience with Israeli intransigence and belligerence. Israel is increasingly isolated and loathed. The Arab Spring, as you pointed out, will fundamentally alter sympathies. The Wikileaks revelations told us all just who was interested in peace and who wanted to steal the West Bank.

Israel's own actions have exposed its real agenda - annexing the West Bank. The myth that Israel is an island of democracy surrounded by millions of bloodthirsty Arabs queueing up to drive it into the sea is obsolete. Only blinkered fools take that nonsense seriously any more. Victims don't maintain brutal military occupations for over 40 years. Victims don't do Cast Leads (the slaughter in Gaza, 2008).

Sooner or later Americans will form the same views as the rest of the world, and decide that Israel just isn't worth the trouble, the endless expense, the constant embarrassments, the international humiliations, the taint of never-ending atrocities and war crimes. Hopefully for Israel's sake, Israelis will wake up to reality before it's too late, withdraw to the 1967 borders and decide to act like a civilised nation for a change.

If Israel continues to reject peace as an option, it gives the rest of the world no choice but to impose peace upon it. It is very much in Israel's real interests to make a just peace before we arrive at that point.

Americans, by supporting Obama on this issue, can make all the difference.

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:16:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline 		Well, DK joined and didnt latch onto it, so for all you ME geniuses, the one non-negotiable item Netanyahu told Obama in December must be a part of any peace settlement is for Palestine to formally relinquish the Right of Return. That is far more critical to Israel than 1967 borders, because while loss of the Golan Heights in particular would be a military setback, they can still defeat any conventional attack. With Right of Return Israel would be gone in two generations. It is also far more important than formal recognition of Israels right to exist, which is a fairy tale the Palestinians might try to tell with "forked tongue".

Give that up and Netanyahu said a two state solution would be feasible. Again, he may have taken that position knowing it would never come to that, but the offer is out there.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 5/19/2011 8:20:59 PM >

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:18:16 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 5/19/2011 8:19:13 PM >

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:33:59 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Count the number of Palestinians who`ve died during this conflict compared to the number of Israelis.

It`s clear who the aggressor is and who the victims are.

I think Obama`s gutsy for trying to end this black hole.

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:38:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		This conflict isn't going to be settled at a table, until it has been absolutely established who the winners and losers are. If Israel loses that contest, there won't be a need for anyone to sit down for anything but dinner.

Not all the angels are on one side, nor all the devils on the other, but I know which side I can support.

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:43:04 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Being a hard-core Islamaphobe,it`s not hard to guess what you want.

More death, disease and suffering.

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:49:57 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Count the number of Palestinians who`ve died during this conflict compared to the number of Israelis.

It`s clear who the aggressor is and who the victims are.

I think Obama`s gutsy for trying to end this black hole.



I think it is a crucial time to.

We have backed Israel because it served our purposes in the region. If it fails to serve our purposes in the future we will cease to be their champion. Cardinal Richelieu was a French minister who was one of the greatest political thinkers of his age (perhaps one of the greatest ever) who came up with some concepts that nations still hold to when it comes to international affairs...that a sovereign acts in accordance with the interests of their state, and that when it comes to their national interests, they are justified in doing whatever is in its interest. (he was around prior to the modern nation-state, but his thoughts helped form many ideas about nation state government... especially when it came to secrets).

It is just rational that if the political landscape changes in the ME that our policies towards Israel may change along with it... especially if it does not serve our overall interests in the region. Personally, I would rather our leaders act in our interests than some other country's interests... whether they were a "friend", or not. It is a dog eat dog world out there, and when it comes to international relationships, if leaders are not willing to make the hard decisions to further their people's interests.... well they just don't belong as our leaders.

America and her interests first until we come up with a better scheme of running things


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:52:59 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Being a hard-core Islamaphobe,it`s not hard to guess what you want.

More death, disease and suffering.



Hey, O59. Pop quiz. Who said the following?

quote:

it's important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we're talking with each other in a way that -- that heals, not in a way that wounds.


You're a disgrace.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 8:59:08 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		It won`t be easy and no one will "win".I`m betting neither side will be 100% happy.

I hope that one ground rule will be that Palistinian blood won`t be worth less that Israeli blood.

Another would be that war mongering fuck wads on both sides and in America(rich) not have undue influence on things.




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/19/2011 9:04:16 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:05:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

I hope that one ground rule will be that Palistinian blood won`t be worth less that Israeli blood.


I think there will come a day when the side with all of the weapons will deeply regret the pain they have inflicted. I do not think that most Israelis even realize how badly things have gone, nor what life in occupied Palestine is like. It is too threatening to look at it, and as long as Israelis fear the their neighbors without trying to understand their grievances.. they will never have peace. I think peace is what most every day people want, after all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:12:00 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20speech.html


WASHINGTON — Seeking to harness the seismic political change still unfolding in the Arab world, President Obama for the first time on Thursday publicly called for a settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that would create a non-militarized Palestinian state on the basis of Israel’s borders before the 1967 war that led to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.


NO! No fucking way!

They lost the war. This is what happens. You loose land.

Israel has tried peace agreements. What happened? Their kids get blown up on buses.

This is ridiculous. Give Pakistan back to India first.



They have a choice as far as I see it, either they give full citizenship to all the Palestinians under their control and stop their apartheid state, or they give them their own yard and let them self determine their own life... they cannot play it both ways forever. Either they are a democracy, or they are not, and by democracy I mean a place where people have equal rights under the law no matter who their mother is.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:12:21 PM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Water and water rights will be one of the biggest sticking points.

Possibly bigger than land or even Jerusalem.


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:21:21 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Water and water rights will be one of the biggest sticking points.

Possibly bigger than land or even Jerusalem.



Yes, Israelis are culturally more similar to Europeans than to semitic peoples. They have large swimming pools, lawns, and misuse their water resources in a climate that is similar to the one I live in. They use ground water. It is a nonrenewable resource, because Israeli is semi-arid. Palestinians, on the other hand, use water for agricultural purposes, mostly, and often have to carry water from communal wells. I have seen documentaries in which a Palestinian village will be right next to an Israeli settlement.... the Israelis having large lawns and swimming pools, while Palestinians do not even have running water. This would tend to cause resentment... wouldn't it?

The water resources Israelis need are under the Gaza Strip and other parts of the area Obama wants them to agree to give up.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:33:29 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Well it will have to be a two-state, Julia, but without an unquestioned acceptance of Israel's right to exist, why should they give the rockets and really-dumb bombers a more concentrated target?

And if Israel should accept such a guarantee, and go back to the old lines, and the peace was broken by the Palestinians, would you support Israel in that war?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:46:01 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

And if Israel should accept such a guarantee, and go back to the old lines, and the peace was broken by the Palestinians, would you support Israel in that war?


Are you talking the government of Palestine, or some smaller group of terrorists?

And what sort of "support" are you speaking of, moral or military?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:54:08 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

And if Israel should accept such a guarantee, and go back to the old lines, and the peace was broken by the Palestinians, would you support Israel in that war?


Are you talking the government of Palestine, or some smaller group of terrorists?

And what sort of "support" are you speaking of, moral or military?


That you even ask those questions shows you are clueless about Palestinians.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Obama Backs Deal Based on 1967 Lines - 5/19/2011 9:58:16 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Are you talking the government of Palestine, or some smaller group of terrorists?

And what sort of "support" are you speaking of, moral or military?



If terrorists are operating within the jurisdiction of a hypothetical peaceful Palestinian government, Julia, does it matter? Keeping the peace is their problem. Does it matter if they are malevolent, or simply incompetent?

And I mean support the way you do the Palestinians now, or would in a war.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 80
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