Can anyone see the comparison? (Full Version)

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NikkiAnn -> Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 9:35:12 AM)

     I have read a lot of information about the D/s relationship and have been giving this a lot of thought. (yes, subbies can think about more that fantasies and play). I was raised in a Catholic religion school and wondered at the time how the priests could give up everything in their lives to devote themselves to God. They worship and devote their lives to serving God and it seemed like it would be impossible to give up material things, having a wife and family, and so on. Doesn't a priest's life make them look very much like a submissive?
Priest's actually don't just live in a room and only come out when they need to serve God. They have varied and interesting lives outside of the church. They can golf, enjoy sports events, go see a movie, hang out at the beach, attend classes at a college, you get the point.
Slave's and sub's also devote themselves to pleasing and serving their Master's and Mistress's.  The situation is the for slaves and subs as it is for priest's. We are still individuals and can have jobs, attend family events, recreational activities and so forth. But when the Master Mistress, or God needs or desires something from their Slave's, sub's, or the priest's, we devote our selves totally to them, we obey them, we do everything we can to please them. In return God, Mistresses, and Masters watch over us, care for our physical and emotional needs, love us and protect us. The relationship between God and a priest seems exactly the same as the relationship between a Mistress or Master and their subs and slaves. Am I viewing this relationship correctly? This is the kind of relationship I am searching for with a Mistress. I hope this is not an unreachable goal. (Just some thoughts from a newbie). (I hope I am getting this right.)

Nikki Ann TS




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 9:37:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NikkiAnn
The relationship between God and a priest seems exactly the same as the relationship between a Mistress or Master and their subs and slaves. Am I viewing this relationship correctly? This is the kind of relationship I am searching for with a Mistress. I hope this is not an unreachable goal. (Just some thoughts from a newbie). (I hope I am getting this right.)

Nikki Ann TS

While not exactly the same, many comparisons and parallels can be drawn.

A slave can and often does care and nurture and teach the master. A master can be highly devoted  and even doting on their slave.

But worship of the master, devotion and submission to a "higher power" is completely apt.




cloudboy -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 9:46:38 AM)


You have launched, IMO, a hedonism v. spiritualism debate.

There are parallels, but deifying tops doesn't strike me as appropriate. Serving one person is a far cry from devoting oneself to truth, humanity, or platonic ideals, although when in love, it may seem otherwise.




NINASHARP -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 9:54:05 AM)

I too have seen the comparison.  I was raised catholic and after my grandfather died my grandmother went to live and care for the priest for the rest of her healthy life. I spent many summers with her as a child, watching her be submissive to the church, the Father and to God.  As for the D/s role, for those of christian faith, can you really serve a Mistress/Master in all heart and soul, yet follow your own faith and only serve one God?

I've always pondered that question and for me, there seems to be a contradiction.  




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:10:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NINASHARP
As for the D/s role, for those of christian faith, can you really serve a Mistress/Master in all heart and soul, yet follow your own faith and only serve one God?

I've always pondered that question and for me, there seems to be a contradiction.  

For some, yes there is a contradiction.  For some, they consider service to their masters as a way to be in service to their god.

For some, they serve their master, but not to the point of worship.




MasterFireMaam -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:30:06 AM)

I've been posting this link for a while. It touches on much the same topic, although it talks about more.

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/slave.htm

Fire




NikkiAnn -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:40:45 AM)

I really wasn't talking about worship, and I see your point. I more meant the devotion and serving. While I was raised as a Catholic, I have since lost faith with religions and churches. I have learned that most of the big religions throughout history have gone to war, tortured, burned, and killed those who had a belief different from their own . Do a little research and you will see what I mean. It still goes on today, Catholics vs protestant, Islam and their terrorist againt anyone who doesn't follow their religious beliefs. I believe in God and when he said love your neighbor as yourself, I don't think he meant love your neighbor as yourself unless he is different than you. Most religions don't welcome Transsexuals into their churches and most say we are sinning to change our bodies to match our minds and we will go to hell for it. So I guess you can see why I may be just a little bitter towards them. I didn't mean to turn this into a religious debate. I only wanted to point out that priests must be submissive by nature or learned with time. I also wanted to say what kind of relationship I was hoping to find with a Mistress.

Nikki Ann




LadiesBladewing -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:46:44 AM)

NikkiAnn,

What you've described is pretty much the way that we describe our situation here. I can tell you that it is -really- challenging to find individuals whose focus is in this area, on either side of the D/s dynamic, so don't get discouraged as you seek out the individual who is right for you. If this is the way you see a life in service, I know that there is someone out there who will appreciate exactly what you have to offer, and will challenge you to express it in ever more intense and growth-provoking ways.

Bright Blessings,
Lady Zephyr




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:47:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NikkiAnn
Do a little research and you will see what I mean.

Yeah, I'll have to do that.

quote:

 Most religions don't welcome Transsexuals into their churches and most say we are sinning to change our bodies to match our minds and we will go to hell for it.

Actually many religions are in favor or altering your body and appearance for ritual or spiritual purposes.

Just not changing your body in THAT way for THAT purpose to engage in certain acts.

quote:

I only wanted to point out that priests must be submissive by nature or learned with time.

This is a FAR different point than what your original post suggested. 

Do not confuse service and devotion with submission. 




LadyHugs -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 10:53:03 AM)

Dear NikkiAnn, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
The things that "we" as a community that practices D/s and or M/s that we borrow from the religious factors can be very interesting and, not limited to spirituality.
 
Wearing their robes and insignias of their religious order, as if knights are dressed with significance in which each piece of their garments has meaning.  No different from Masters/Mistresses wearing their "uniform" and or garments to which significance also has meaning.
 
The underlying common theme is the submission to a greater power and authority, based upon faith and the “canons” of that faith. A code of conduct is also present.  Having protocols, it establishes the discipline, the authority and submission, as to respect the dynamic.  So there is the D/s and or M/s distinct line of separation between authority and power and those who submit and respect such.  And, with consent.
 
The Medieval Church and Counter Reformation. This was Catholic churches of Europe. Throughout the history of the Catholic Church, it fought most zealously to be anti-Protestant.  So, the Inquisitions began; to which many tortures were developed which the modern BDSM uses but, in a muted way as, not to cause death and or injuries.  Yet, all these sadistic practices were well practiced long before De`Sade.
 
The "Cats Claw/Spanish Tickler," which ripped skin, genitals;  we have now claws in mits to awaken the flesh not rip the flesh to shreds. Hanging cages, such as we find occassionally suspended cages of chain on disks of wood that hold tight the submissive but, not abandoned there as it was in the Inquisitional period; Chastity belts; The Oral, Anal and Vaginal Pear, to which the Inquisition's version had spikes and such but, now medical individuals use similar to a speculum.  The Rack has changed little since those times.  The Stocks and or Pillory; has not changed much as well.  Knotting, which has been used for ages, which is a torture of taking a woman's hair and twisting it as a cork-screw ripping hair and scalp.  Chain flails--used in the Inquisition period as well.  The Roman flail a three strand flail to which was barbed, altered to modern use with rubber and rubber barb wire features.  It really is interesting how much has been in practice but, just remodeled for modern and consensual uses.
 
With the use of the flogger/flail; there was the use for discipline, self flagulation allowed a catharsis, as to purge the spirit and soul, thus have a release, this also we do in the scene very often, achieving similar results for the similar reasons--to release, to experience the changes of emotions and revitalization for living.  This was defined by the Greek slave and philospher Aristotle and practiced all these years.
 
Bound by duty, honor, faith, authority, guidence, teaching, educating, practice, ritual, ceremony, protocols, rules (canons), submission, respect and so much more; it is indeed a interesting thing to match up to what D/s and faith and religion wishes to portray.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs
 
 




JohnWarren -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 11:18:05 AM)

I see a very strong parallel between Orders (particularly nuns) and online submission.  I wonder if anyone would argue that a nun's marriage to Christ isn't valid simply because she isn't going to meet him on this side of the Veil and has no direct contact.  In both, it's the feelings that count.  Since I can't see people's feelings, I tend to take what they tell me at face value as long as I'm not part of the interaction.

Oh, and if the person isn't being honest, it doesn't impinge on either my marriage to Libby nor to her feelings of submission to me.  This idea of outrage because someone else might not be "doing it right" tells volumes about how people feel about their own relationships.




amayos -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 11:29:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NikkiAnn
I have read a lot of information about the D/s relationship and have been giving this a lot of thought. (yes, subbies can think about more that fantasies and play). I was raised in a Catholic religion school and wondered at the time how the priests could give up everything in their lives to devote themselves to God. They worship and devote their lives to serving God and it seemed like it would be impossible to give up material things, having a wife and family, and so on. Doesn't a priest's life make them look very much like a submissive?


I adore christians; per their formative conditioning they so often come sub-consciously pre-packaged as unremittingly unworthy, guilty and seeking forgiveness. It takes only the right twist to exploit that programming and redirect it. [:)]






NikkiAnn -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 11:33:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing

NikkiAnn,

What you've described is pretty much the way that we describe our situation here. I can tell you that it is -really- challenging to find individuals whose focus is in this area, on either side of the D/s dynamic, so don't get discouraged as you seek out the individual who is right for you. If this is the way you see a life in service, I know that there is someone out there who will appreciate exactly what you have to offer, and will challenge you to express it in ever more intense and growth-provoking ways.

Bright Blessings,
Lady Zephyr


Thank You Lady Zephyr,
Oh yes, this truly is how I see it and feel a life in service should be. I am very much looking for this and you made me quite happy to think that there are Mistresses who think and feel that same.

Nikki Ann




cloudboy -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 11:43:19 AM)


You've always had the look of a defrocked priest.




composer83 -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 12:53:50 PM)

GREAT post, Lady Hugs...

i too have noticed some of the similarities between religion & a D/s relationship.  Tho, personally i would find it difficult to serve a Mistress with such blatant hypocrisy as the church.
yeh i said it
but otherwise i do my best to serve with the zeal of the crusaders! & is that not a desirable quality in a sub?  really, im asking....




SirKenin -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 3:24:58 PM)

Well, considering as how Christians are expected to serve the Lord, it is not a comparison that is that far off, albeit a perverted one I must admit.




slavejali -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 3:54:38 PM)

 
I see my partner as God and happily submit to him as such. [:)] I think its a little play of a much larger one, the micrcosm reflecting the macrocosm. Master/slave relationship doesnt replace my spirituality but is very much a part of it.




darq -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 4:03:25 PM)

Christian wives are commanded to submit to their husbands ...

Read the Song of Songs (also known as the Song of Solomon) and pay attention the symbolism behind the words ... Its pretty heady stuff and its filled with dominance and submission.

As far as Christians having a D/s relationship, I'm both surprised and not surprised that someone would actually ask about it ... For me, personally, (and please realize I'm a fairly new Christian so my past wasn't always like this) it is very important that any man I submit to have a close relationship with God. If he's going to become my husband/Master that also means he's going to become my spiritual leader. I still maintain my own relationship with God, but my husband/Master has a unique role in my life ... Instead of being held accountable to my spiritual guardians, I become accountable to my husband/Master. Clearly, God is still my only diety. I will never worship my Master. My relationship with him is like a reflection of the relationship Christians have with God.

I hope that made sense and didn't come across as being preachy.




DifferentSubGirl -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 4:18:22 PM)

Somebody asked, basically, how a sub can possibly serve hir Master if they also serve God. I personally find no conflict whatsoever in this. It's very simple, at least, for me. See below for my thoughts on this.

God is different than a human, mortal dominant partner.
My dominant partner is not God and never will be. I worship God as I will, and I love and respect my dominant partner as I feel is appropriate, but I quite literally can't confuse the two -- the two needs/desires/feelings are SO different there is no possibility of confusing my dominant partner for God, or vice versa.

CS Lewis, in his book "A Grief Observed" said it best, and I'm paraphrasing here because I can't remember the direct quote:

"Expecting that God will fulfill our need for romantic pleasure and our need for a life partner is about as silly as expecting that when we need food to eat, we will be given rocks. The ability and need to worship God is entirely different and separate from our human need for partnership, companionship and romance. Trying to tell me that because one has only one part of this and therefore doesn't need the other is ludicrous. Worship of God is right and proper, but it does not fill my need for my wife. Only my wife can fill that particular need. She is not God, thankfully.She is herself, with all the good and bad inherent in who she is. I love my wife because she is the one I love and cherish. She does not, however, fulfill my need for God -- only He can fill that. God has designed human beings with the need to fill two kinds of desires -- desire for Him and desire for human love. Trying to confuse the two, or substitute one for another, leads only to ruin and disaster. I love my wife for who she is. Loving my wife does not mean that I no longer need God, on the contrary, loving my wife makes me aware that there is a need for God that she cannot fill."

Other authors have expressed this concept as "the human's longing for the infinite to become finite within them" along with the realization that while human beings love and serve and respect each other, that loving and serving God fills an entirely different sort of need.

So far as I'm concerned, it's generally pretty clear what's going on when I'm giving God His right and due from me, and when I'm interacting with my dominant partner. For me, there's never been any conflict, nor do I think there ever will be.


DSG




twicehappy -> RE: Can anyone see the comparison? (5/12/2006 5:38:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DifferentSubGirl

Somebody asked, basically, how a sub can possibly serve hir Master if they also serve God.


A well thought out post on your part. That then brings up the question what if your god and his god are in conflict?

Let me give you an example; i was emailing back and forth and getting along reasonably well with a Dom. Then he asked me to go to church with him. When i explained i was druid from birth and had no part of churches he damned me to hell forever, then sent me so many emails begging me to repent i actually blocked him.

I think that is more the type of scenario that causes the question you brought up.

Do i worship my owners? Absolutely! In the same manner i worship my Gods? No, as a druid for me it is more about knowledge and respect for life, honoring the mother and the father, bringing in the seasons, there is no real bowing down to worship.

Would i ever allow myself to be collared by someone who could not respect my beliefs? No way! It is too intrinsic to who i am as a person.




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