Awareness
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ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
As I pointed out in my previous post (the part you dismiss as childish), that quote from Intercourse is defining the male supremacist view of penetrative sex, NOT the feminist view, and NOT Dworkin's view. The quote you have used has been taken completely out of context. No. You are wrong. It is very clearly Dworkin's view. I know because *I* quoted it and I did not take it "out of context".
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And I equated the view it expressed to your views for two reasons. First because it is very similar to your views as stated in this thread, and in others. and second, because you have referred to it as supporting your view. Now I don't really care deep down what your views are, but please don't ascribe them to others, particularly others who were in fact dismissing those views. It just makes you look incompetent. As I've said, you are incorrect. And I have never stated that sex=rape. Your equating that statement to my view, was a childish attempt at oneupmanship. And since you've not bothered to look the reference up yourself, I'm afraid you're looking incompetent at this juncture.
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ORIGINAL: Awareness
You claimed never to have been penetrated by a man. Which is it? Yes, or no? Not all sexual domination involves vaginal or anal penetration with a penis. For the love of Christ, the entire focus of the discussion is about penetrative sex as a dominant act. In other words, you haven't been penetrated by a man and so your claim of "experience" is simply a lie. Good lord, after demonstrating intelligence, now you demonstrate intellectual dishonesty. Pathetic.
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When you first posted, I resolved to give you a fair hearing. To take your views at face value and to examine them without preconception. I've tried very hard to do just that, and I think i have managed reasonably well. I've asked others not to tear into you the way they have on other threads. I've overlooked the condescending tone of your replies and done my best to answer you in an even and reasonable manner. But I'm sorry, I've had all I can take... Even the best of us occasionally let our ego take control. At specific points you've done that. You have insight, yes, but you're woefully determined to push a point of view and you're not remotely impartial. Nice try, but that's simply not true.
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You say we build world models based on our experiences, yet you dismiss all other such models out of hand. Only your model has any validity. You claim to have much psychological, physiological, biological, and sociological science to back up your views, but you cannot provide any such evidence. The only bit of such evidence you have presented, in fact says the exact opposite of what you claim it does. Actually no. I provided a reference point which is factually correct and you are simply wrong. Go read instead of taking the word of someone else. You clearly have not read the passage I refer to and it is NOT the all-encompassing claim that sex is rape which I quoted. You've made the mistake of relying upon someone else instead of doing your own research. I can tell because I HAVE read the passage in question and I fully understand the context in which the quotation arises. Immediately prior to this quote, Dworkin made reference to the view of Victoria Woodhull who expressed a female-supremacist view of intercourse. However, from the context of the quote it was clear that Dworkin was articulating her own view as fact. It had nothing whatsoever to do with any male-supremacist view.
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It is now clear to me, and I suspect to pretty much anybody else who has been reading along, that you really don't know nearly as much about things as you like to pretend you do. I admit I have very little experience either real world or theoretical, but I honestly believe I understand the dynamics of dominance and submission be it man/man, man/woman, and certainly woman/woman than you do. I'm sure you do, but arrogance is pretty much always an artefact of youth. We usually get over it when the world proves to be far bigger, more complex and wilder than we ever imagined. Believe me, at your age, I wasn't exactly a model of insight and tolerance. Mind you, the male experience of growing up is so different to the female experience, we may as well originate from different planets.
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The reason for this is simple. I am willing to listen and learn. I start with an idea or position and I ask questions. the evidence presented then causes me to modify my position. This is a common sense approach. You on the other hand have started with an idea and position, and rather than ask questions to solicit opinions and evidence, you ignore all such, you dismiss anything that does not fit your model. Actually I doubt that very much. You pretty much demonstrate an unwillingness to consider ideas which threaten your model of the world. Asking questions is not the measure of an open mind Heather. It's being willing to modify your position by the accepting of those ideas, based upon the logic and reason with which they're presented. It is with no trace of irony that I say that in my experience, women are less accepting of logic and reasoning than men.
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I suspect if we ran a scientific poll of all the female subs/slaves on CM , the results would show you to be incorrect in your assumptions of how they interpret and process male dominance and penetration. And I'm equally sure that you would dismiss those results, claiming the CM membership isn't truly representative of "real" female subs. To be honest, I simply wouldn't care. As long as my understanding produces the desired results, any polls are rather irrelevant to me. To contest that my view was superior would simply be an artefact of ego. You may require such reassurance. I do not.
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You are, of course, more than welcome to continue to contribute, but I do ask that if you do, you be prepared to back up your position with something of a factual nature, rather than just more of your unsubstantiated opinions dressed up as pseudo-science.
I did, and you simply pick and choose what you decide to believe. Unfortunately, a debate involving logic and reason requires agreement upon axioms before inferences can be used to build a chain of reason. Given that you're unable to agree on axioms, the idea that we'll have a debate is unrealistic. Also given that you simply feigned an interest in my views, rather than specifically requesting a chain of reasoning, the idea that you're prepared to engage with intellectual honesty seems remote.
There is one other aspect of penetrative sex which I haven't mentioned and which, to my mind, contributes very much toward the idea of penetration as inherently dominant. That is, the psychological response to violation of bodily integrity.
There's a fundamentally violent revulsion in humanity to the imposition of an external agency into the body. People swallow their own saliva all day, but hand them a cup of their own spit and they recoil. An entire sub-genre of horror is devoted to body horror. Penetrative sex fundamentally introduces the violation of bodily integrity - a point Dworkin specifically mentions.
Being penetrated by a cock is an experience which a woman cannot supply. An impartial piece of plastic doesn't match it in terms of the intense psychological impact. Sure, you can go with fingers, but ask a hetero female sub if there's a difference between fingers and a cock and see what answer you get.
Attempting to assert that a cock is irrelevant to sex is exactly what I would expect from a lesbian. There's too much self-interest at stake to believe otherwise. To pretend that you're attempting to engage in impartial debate instead of one with an undercurrent of heterophobia is sheer nonsense. I considered it unlikely and your response pretty much demonstrated I was correct.
Yes, you're young. And when I was young, I absolutely loathed it when my elders mentioned it. As though my views were lesser because of it. Trouble was, in some ways they were right. Experience gives you perspective and at least the potential for a more tolerant view of humanity.
You're quite happy to rub your youth in the faces of us ancient types, so you're going to have to cop it sweet if we give you shit about your youth. Turnabout is fair play. You can't have it both ways.
By the way - I'll post what I damn like. Feel free to argue with me - if you can keep up.
*grin* Ciao Bella.
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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.
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RE: Male vs. Female Dominance (My 1st thread) - 
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