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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:49:41 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Me chosen to be obtuse? What shit lol. First I said crack and cocaine were similar and from that you deduced that I didn't know what the differences between the two drugs are. I asked you why and you answered a question with a question which proves you couldn't admit you couldn't prove it. They are similar but not quite the same, an undeniable fact. I then defined the differences between crack and cocaine saying pretty much what you said above but you still pretend I'm wrong. I said crack/freebase were smokable forms. BTW crack is not pure freebase cocaine so you're wrong there too


The primary difference between cocaine and freebase/crack is that freebase/crack has removed the impurities(cut) from the coke....now where again was it that you pointed this out?

(in reply to WantsOfTheFlesh)
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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/5/2011 9:53:15 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Personally, I would like, should I choose, to be able to use The Sacraments in the Set and Setting that promotes exploration and creativity rather than paranoia and unease.

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 12:07:04 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Did you look into the Swedish model... if not do so… then tell me again it will not work.

Part of a treatment program would be education in the specific dangers of their drug...it has worked in other areas of the world no reason it will not work here.

Opiates were legal in the US at one time and that did not work.

Butch

Butch, I'm getting the impression we are looking at this issue from fundamentally different viewpoints.

I am approaching it from a health perspective. I have a feeling you see things from a primarily moral perspective. Please don't misunderstand me - a moral perspective is as valid a perspective as any other.

If this is correct, please let me know what you think a solution to this issue would look like. For me a solution would be no more deaths and diseases, addiction accepted as a health issue, appropriate education treatment and support for addicts and drug users, and an end to the multiple social ills generated by prohibition (crime, gangsterism, social ostracism of drug users etc). For me all this is achievable through proper public policy.

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 5:07:30 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Just because you claim you have done somehting does not make it true.
Since you have chosen to be obtuse I will give you the answer.
Freebase/crack effectively removes the impurities(cut) from powder cocain and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion.
How about in the future you bring you bring something more than opinion to the discussion.


Where in the above quote do I say that crack is pure freebase?

You say it right here:
quote:

Freebase/crack effectively removes the impurities(cut) from powder cocain and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion.
You inferred crack was essentially freebase cause you claim both effectively remove cocaine's impurity. Coke's "impurity" is its salt form, not its being cut in any way.

Even if that is not what you meant you are still wrong cause you claim crack "... effectively removes the impurities". In fact not only does it leave a lot of impurity, it also adds them. Standard cocaine is described as a salt. Freebase transforms it to its purer chemical base but da process is dangerous. Crack sidesteps most of that process so it is safer to manufacture but has a lot more impurity. It also adds baking soda and water to make the rocks. It doesn't effectively remove impurity. Are you happy now? Guess probably not lol.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Me chosen to be obtuse? What shit lol. First I said crack and cocaine were similar and from that you deduced that I didn't know what the differences between the two drugs are. I asked you why and you answered a question with a question which proves you couldn't admit you couldn't prove it. They are similar but not quite the same, an undeniable fact. I then defined the differences between crack and cocaine saying pretty much what you said above but you still pretend I'm wrong. I said crack/freebase were smokable forms. BTW crack is not pure freebase cocaine so you're wrong there too

The primary difference between cocaine and freebase/crack is that freebase/crack has removed the impurities(cut) from the coke....now where again was it that you pointed this out?

Here again you are being deliberately oblique by removing da part in your definition about them being smokable forms ("... and changes the coke into a smokable form which facilitates injestion"). You know very well I said previously that crack and freebase were the smokable forms of coke. I didn't mention that freebase removes impurities but you didn't request a fairly technical description just da prime difference. In any case I proved above my statement is more technically correct than yours since you claim both "effectively removes the impurities".

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 6/6/2011 5:59:27 AM >

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RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:00:23 AM   
hot4bondage


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
Have you considered that your argument is based on the collectivist belief that you do not own your own body? That's a pandora's box, and I guaranfuckingtee it won't stop with the eradication of french fries. Prohibition is a counter-productive fraud.

"I haven't considered that idea but some might say we aren't just individuals, we are also members of a society and owe a good deal to it. Sounds orwellian but I'm not sayin' individual liberties shouldn't be respected but we have a certain duty of care to a greater collective whole. If our freedoms clash with societal rules it ain't necessarily so dat freedoms come first."--WantsOFTheFlesh


I just don't see any room for compromise on this issue. You either own your body or you don't. Under your worldview, wouldn't you eventually have to eat only nuts and berries, and wear a helmet in your car? Actually, cars would be illegal, since mass transit would be safer and more efficient for the collective. Or you can look at it this way--what if football was a new sport? It's unprovable of course, but I'd bet that the US is already collectivist to the point where insurance providers wouldn't allow it in public schools. And how about BDSM? Does big brother monitor your session, and say your safeword for you? So who draws the line, and where?

< Message edited by hot4bondage -- 6/6/2011 8:02:59 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:53:34 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I’ve always wondered why people feel the need to alter their reality through dugs. I see this as infantile, selfish, and weak minded.

Users often kill themselves and others around them. They bring nothing but heartache to those that love them…I know and I’m not alone.

This cavalier attitude to drugs here on CM pisses me off. No one has the right to hurt others for personal freedom. I hope they never have to face the tragedy of an addicted love one and see them slowly destroy themselves and the hurt and pain they cause in those close to them. Just because drugs have not affected them is not a reason to provide easy access to those that are affected differently and tragically.

To me the penalties for the pushers are not nearly strong enough…I don’t care if it is a deterrent or not… they don’t deserve to live.

We are not too far apart on the health issue… I believe addictions starts in one of two ways… ignorance and peer pressure or mental illness.

I don’t believe users need to be locked up but they do need a heavy fine to emphasize the severity of their actions and educated on the possible affects on their bodies, friends and families.

Those physically and mentally addicted must be evaluated for mental illness and an appropriate treatment mandated by law.

The rest need to grow up.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/6/2011 9:57:59 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 11:18:30 AM   
hot4bondage


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Joined: 7/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’ve always wondered why people feel the need to alter their reality through dugs. I see this as infantile, selfish, and weak minded.

Users often kill themselves and others around them. They bring nothing but heartache to those that love them…I know and I’m not alone.

This cavalier attitude to drugs here on CM pisses me off. No one has the right to hurt others for personal freedom. I hope they never have to face the tragedy of an addicted love one and see them slowly destroy themselves and the hurt and pain they cause in those close to them. Just because drugs have not affected them is not a reason to provide easy access to those that are affected differently and tragically.

To me the penalties for the pushers are not nearly strong enough…I don’t care if it is a deterrent or not… they don’t deserve to live.

We are not too far apart on the health issue… I believe addictions starts in one of two ways… ignorance and peer pressure or mental illness.

I don’t believe users need to be locked up but they do need a heavy fine to emphasize the severity of their actions and educated on the possible affects on their bodies, friends and families.

Those physically and mentally addicted must be evaluated for mental illness and an appropriate treatment mandated by law.

The rest need to grow up.

Butch


Your attitude toward freedom and personal responsibility pisses me off. How many workers would you have executed at the Jack Daniels distillery? Or RJ Reynolds corporate headquarters? Your reason and compassion are being clouded by emotion. You seem to be open to the idea that addiction is a disease. So why punish people for it?

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 11:43:45 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The vast majority of drug use is not a disease... it is a decadent useless indulgence that is the cause of much misery in this world... it deserves punishment.

But for those that are truly addicted mandating treatment is hardly punishment... it is another chance at life.

If there were a legal way to abuse your body and perhaps kill yourself and others… what benefit would it be to have 2 or 3 or 10 more ways to kill yourself. Because alcohol is legal and can be deadly what idiot would say…will because alcohol can kill and is legal lets legalize many more killing chemicals so our children can ingest and abuse them too.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to hot4bondage)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 11:55:09 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

I’ve always wondered why people feel the need to alter their reality through dugs.

People alter their reality by reading. Would you like to ban books?

I see this as infantile, selfish, and weak minded.

I see your desire to intrude on the lives of others to be infantile,selfish and weak minded.




< Message edited by thompsonx -- 6/6/2011 12:03:11 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 12:02:22 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

The vast majority of drug use is not a disease... it is a decadent useless indulgence that is the cause of much misery in this world... it deserves punishment.


You realize of course that there are some who who would find your playing dress up to be a decadent useless indulgence that deserves punishment.

quote:

Those physically and mentally addicted must be evaluated for mental illness and an appropriate treatment mandated by law.


By definition this would require you to be evaluated for mental illness(playing dress up) and an appropriate treatment mandated by law


(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 1:39:00 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
quote:

ORIGINAL: hot4bondage
Have you considered that your argument is based on the collectivist belief that you do not own your own body? That's a pandora's box, and I guaranfuckingtee it won't stop with the eradication of french fries. Prohibition is a counter-productive fraud.

quote:


"I haven't considered that idea but some might say we aren't just individuals, we are also members of a society and owe a good deal to it. Sounds orwellian but I'm not sayin' individual liberties shouldn't be respected but we have a certain duty of care to a greater collective whole. If our freedoms clash with societal rules it ain't necessarily so dat freedoms come first."--WantsOFTheFlesh

I just don't see any room for compromise on this issue. You either own your body or you don't. Under your worldview, wouldn't you eventually have to eat only nuts and berries, and wear a helmet in your car? Actually, cars would be illegal, since mass transit would be safer and more efficient for the collective. Or you can look at it this way--what if football was a new sport? It's unprovable of course, but I'd bet that the US is already collectivist to the point where insurance providers wouldn't allow it in public schools. And how about BDSM? Does big brother monitor your session, and say your safeword for you? So who draws the line, and where?

You misunderstand my point cause I said individual liberties are important too. A balance can be struck. My point was dat drug legalisation isn't just a matter of individual liberties, its also an issue dat relates to society overall. We're members of a given society which helps ensure our liberties thru law but it also limits them somewhat if for example activities would be harmful to others. This is all debated and what is precluded changes over time. If a drug is largely harmless then there would not be an issue for society. Prohibiting it would needlessly limit liberties. Lets say for da sake of argument there is a highly addictive drug that is harming a significant section of da populace which is addicted to it, and it in turn is harming their families. An example is rampant opium addiction in Afghanistan. If it is or could damage society then I reckon its fair to take a collective decision to prohibit it.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 4:38:42 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

You realize of course that there are some who who would find your playing dress up to be a decadent useless indulgence that deserves punishment.


I hope so

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 4:44:53 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

You realize of course that there are some who who would find your playing dress up to be a decadent useless indulgence that deserves punishment.


I hope so

So you would be ok with twenty years in prison for playing dress up?
Shock therapy?
Execution?



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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:04:55 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The vast majority of drug use is not a disease... it is a decadent useless indulgence that is the cause of much misery in this world... it deserves punishment.

But for those that are truly addicted mandating treatment is hardly punishment... it is another chance at life.

If there were a legal way to abuse your body and perhaps kill yourself and others… what benefit would it be to have 2 or 3 or 10 more ways to kill yourself. Because alcohol is legal and can be deadly what idiot would say…will because alcohol can kill and is legal lets legalize many more killing chemicals so our children can ingest and abuse them too.

Butch
Meanwhile, in the Real World, Here's a Dispassionate View of Decriminalization in Portugal Without Moralizing or Hysterical Horseshit


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:31:49 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I’ve always wondered why people feel the need to alter their reality through dugs. I see this as infantile, selfish, and weak minded.

Users often kill themselves and others around them. They bring nothing but heartache to those that love them…I know and I’m not alone.

This cavalier attitude to drugs here on CM pisses me off. No one has the right to hurt others for personal freedom. I hope they never have to face the tragedy of an addicted love one and see them slowly destroy themselves and the hurt and pain they cause in those close to them. Just because drugs have not affected them is not a reason to provide easy access to those that are affected differently and tragically.

To me the penalties for the pushers are not nearly strong enough…I don’t care if it is a deterrent or not… they don’t deserve to live.

We are not too far apart on the health issue… I believe addictions starts in one of two ways… ignorance and peer pressure or mental illness.

I don’t believe users need to be locked up but they do need a heavy fine to emphasize the severity of their actions and educated on the possible affects on their bodies, friends and families.

Those physically and mentally addicted must be evaluated for mental illness and an appropriate treatment mandated by law.

The rest need to grow up.

Butch

Thanks for clarifying your position Butch.

In your posts, I see that you talk about drug taking almost exclusively in terms of addiction. For me, drug taking and addiction are quite separate phenomena. Most users take drugs (including cocaine and heroin) without getting addicted or suffering the problems associated with addiction. And there are lots of addictions that don't involve taking drugs.

One could say we live in an addictive society. It's possible to get addicted to almost anything - sport fashion money work drink TV movies music reading food drugs cars sex chocolate..... It's useful to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy addictions, and also between legal and illegal addictions. In one sense, treatment is the addict transferring their fixation/dependency from unhealthy and/or illegal substances/behaviours to healthy legal ones, with lifestyle changes aimed at making the change permanent.

While you are entitled to your moral judgement that drug-taking is "infantile, selfish, and weak minded", is it any more or less "infantile, selfish, and weak minded" than say, an addiction to TV or fashion or cars? I'm afraid I can't see that it is. And even if it was, is the law an appropriate vehicle to impose this morality on a society that doesn't share this view? And if it is an appropriate vehicle, why is it imposed in such an unthinking arbitrary fashion? Why is a taste for grass or cocaine illegal and a taste for TV or alcohol or tobacco legal? This makes no sense to me at any level.

If we're going to use the law to impose moral values, then those values have to be imposed consistently across the board. Cherry-picking (as we currently do) simply brings the law itself into disrepute - arguably a far greater moral demerit, definitely a far greater social demerit.

The area where the drug taking and addictions overlap is only a relatively small area of both drug taking and addiction in general. It's importance comes from the devastation to individual health, to families and the crime/social problems generated by the financial cost of drug addiction. Punitive, often ill-informed social attitudes to drug takers and conflating drug taking with addiction compounds these problems.

Most of these problems can be minimised or solved completely by adopting a sane, rational, evidence driven approach to the area.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/6/2011 8:33:25 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:41:30 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No one has the right to hurt others for personal freedom. I hope they never have to face the tragedy of an addicted love one and see them slowly destroy themselves and the hurt and pain they cause in those close to them.

This is a crock. The fact that someone feels hurt by another person's choices does not translate into the other person hurting them.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:46:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Read the link I gave ...it describes the faults in the Cato report... Then please do as I suggested and research the Swedish drug policies... their results are much better than Portugal and cost a lot less.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/6/2011 8:47:29 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 8:53:36 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I am talking about legalizing all drug use. We know there are those that have a predisposition for addiction and free access to these drugs could kill them. So it is selfish to demand all drugs be legal because you personally have no problems with addiction. You would be ignoring the death and destruction of thousands of lives for your freedom.

You may not agree with me but I hope you at least see my point.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:02:27 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You may not agree with me but I hope you at least see my point.

Oh absolutely. It's crystal clear. Your point is, anyone who disagrees with you is selfish.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/6/2011 9:09:38 PM >

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Global leaders call for a major shift to decriminal... - 6/6/2011 9:07:37 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		tweak as I said in another post...I agree with you that most people who take drugs are not addicted to them. They are selfish and infantile when they ignore the fact that many people die getting the drugs to users...then many more die or have their lives destroyed because they do become addicted.

I can do without cocaine or heroin or meth even if I don’t become addicted just to save others.

We know from past experience that allowing the free production and distribution of these drugs will kill many thousands of innocent men women and children. So all countries including Portugal continue to prosecute suppliers… This means even with their liberal laws on drugs people continue to be killed getting the drugs to users.

So it come down to is your right to do as you please more important than saving the lives of those unable to control their addictions.

Yes to me it is a moral issue…and I’m no prude …religious nut case… or conservative fanatic…I’m as middle of the road as they come.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 160
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