RE: The End of the Oil Age ?

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:06:58 PM

TheCabal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Several of the neighboring farmers have giant windmills.

They cost half a million each--and pay for themselves every six months. I'd say that's cost effective.

The smaller household ones? Instead of paying your electric bill, you get a check from the power company each month.

So I'm gonna waste my money on one.

Unless you live somewhere very windy, I suspect you are about to be very disappointed.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:10:16 PM

Musicmystery

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Why? Do you suspect my neighbor's wind will stop at my property line?

We live in the hills. Chill.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:13:46 PM

TheCabal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why? Do you suspect my neighbor's wind will stop at my property line?

We live in the hills. Chill.

The basic reason is that the wind dies down. Again, if it doesn't do that where you live, maybe you'll do just fine. But it won't work for most people.

I have 3 neighbors that have gone solar, and have been VERY disappointed with the return on their investment.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:18:04 PM

Musicmystery

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No doubt your solar neighbors are a better judge of wind potential here than my windmill neighbors, of course.

Naturally the wind dies down. The point is that over a month, more is generated than consumed.

My architect pointed out that solar probably wouldn't be the way to go here.

And there's the state and federal 30% tax credit.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/11/2011 3:21:28 PM >

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:24:07 PM

Moonhead

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The only advantage solar has over wind power is that it's less unsightly. I've no idea why TC is trying to pick flaws with your plans, but if you're that high up, a couple of windmills are going to be a much better bet than a solar array.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:26:35 PM

Musicmystery

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Actually, a single windmill will do the trick.

I'm not looking to go into the power production business...

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 3:30:10 PM

Moonhead

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Better still then.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 5:31:07 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

a practical perpetual motion engine which he had machined himself... and his machine was taken away for testing only to be returned with negative results, ...so it was not a perpetual motion engine as he claimed.

I'm missing the point of your story. It didn't work.

Which of these do you think we should be manufacturing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion

The point of the story was that a normal run of the mill guy had an idea and went for it himself instead of waiting for others to come up with it, or even running it under the noses of science or big business. The same with Trevor Bayliss of the hand cranked radio fame, a guy saw a need and had an idea and went for it, at first he was knocked back, business wasn't interested, but a marketeer saw his idea and backed him, now his designs are worldwide with many copies. Another guy Michael Pritchard invented a very useful device which may well be of benefit to all of us in times of disaster, be that natural disaster or other, or even the future if things go pear shaped more than expected for the less able and others. Here, a link to his lecture about his home made device inspired by the Indonesian Tsunami and what happened to Americans when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans.

But of private ideas, for they are there it all comes down to money and with that which business will be interested in making money off another's idea. Then there is the plethora of alternative fuels and processes that have been bought up by the petrochemical industries and never saw the light of day again.

My further question was; does big business/ authority actually help or hinder the private inventor

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 5:44:09 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The only advantage solar has over wind power is that it's less unsightly. I've no idea why TC is trying to pick flaws with your plans, but if you're that high up, a couple of windmills are going to be a much better bet than a solar array.

Why is wind power considered unsightly ?

Or is it, although we want energy, we would rather not see where it is produced, or it marrs the landscape or other such bollocks. Wind turbines, the more the better, where there is the potential for energy generation, bung the things up.

Oh and something else, I heard that some makes of turbine are not that reliable, well, if it is some makes, could it be one gets what one pays for, as there are turbines which are reliable.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/11/2011 8:53:14 PM

TheCabal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The only advantage solar has over wind power is that it's less unsightly. I've no idea why TC is trying to pick flaws with your plans, but if you're that high up, a couple of windmills are going to be a much better bet than a solar array.

I'm not trying to pick out flaws in his plans - I'm pointing out flaws with wind power in general. If he's in a spot where he can generate sufficient electricity to make the windmill a good investment - good for him. There are places where it works. However, it doesn't work everywhere, and it will never be able to supply sufficient power to replace fossil fuels.

On a larger scale though, the wind generation industry only exists because it is heavily subsidized by the government. If it were economical it would be able to compete with coal, nuclear and hydro without huge piles of money from the taxpayer.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 1:43:32 AM

Aneirin

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Can people learn to live with less energy?

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 4:55:54 AM

Moonhead

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Wind power is considered unsightly by the nimby wankers who protest their pointy little heads off every time a wind farm goes up somewhere. Surely you've noticed this?

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 5:18:54 AM

twistedwillow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCabal

We are still in the heart of the golden age of fossil fuels. People have been mistakenly howling about 'peak oil' and worried about it running out since shortly after Titusville in 1859, and we're still discovering more faster than we're using it. And this is doubly true of natural gas.

Every other alternative to fossil fuel has it's own drawbacks.

Hydro, which actually works, and is very cost effective, wreaks havoc with fish.

The danger of nuclear, which also actually works and is cost effective, is currently on display in Japan.

Solar and wind are unreliable and not cost effective - and as very mature technologies, probably never will be. Never mind the danger wind energy poses to birds.

One day - most likely within the next century, I suspect we'll find a way to make nuclear much safer, and we'll be able to migrate to it with minimal effort. Until then though, we have plenty of fossil fuel.

How exactly is it a danger to birds ?
I, for one, imagine it is a lot less dangerous to birds, as well as other wildlife, than the 'family car' is.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 5:41:55 AM

Moonhead

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There's been a few cases of birds flying into wind turbines.
Blind, deaf birds, perhaps?

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 6:56:19 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

the wind generation industry only exists because it is heavily subsidized by the government. If it were economical

Again, every one of those half million dollar windmills (which yes, are placed in the hills on high ground where there's wind) pays for itself every six months.

I'd call that viable.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 8:15:01 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I have been trying to find it, but I read somewhere that rocky shoreline, that cannot be used for very many other things, was good for windmill farms. I also read somewhere how other countries seem more diversified into it, than here.

I am just glad some of the trees I planted are growing fast enough to offer more shade on my home, as I had to remove some pines that were offering shade.

I had an apartment that was 3/4 undeground, being on the back side of the building on a slope. The energy bills for it were about 60% less than my neighbors who lived on the top floor, and I had more electronics.

Would love to see more energy effecient things used.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 9:40:30 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Wind power is considered unsightly by the nimby wankers who protest their pointy little heads off every time a wind farm goes up somewhere. Surely you've noticed this?

Where I live there is a big hill, a bit like a ridge, the biggest hill around here and bloody windy up there too, for years, even back as far as WW2 there were various antennae on that hill, if memory serves me right, over twenty of them, now there is only three red stars at night. Now I did a photo manipulation exercise a while back, where I grafted in over twenty wind turbines onto an electronic image of the hill, and posted the photo on a local interest web page and sat back to wait. Well within a short period the comments came, all of them favourable towards wind turbines on the hill, but one that struck the most was one comment that said they would be a peculiarity for a while, but in a short time, no one would notice they were there, they are just part of the everyday scenery like the antennae is now and was in the past. But most comments realised the provision of wind turbines in such a windy place makes a whole lot of sense. As far as I am aware, there is no plans to put wind turbines up there, I just did the exercise to understand the level of nimbyism in people and see if the people around here were nimbys.

As to the things are noisy, wow, as noisy as industry, or do you really have to concentrate to hear them on the wind. Oh birds fly into them, well, who said our endeavours were nature friendly, how much does gas coal and nuclear kill, nothing we do is without consequence. So far all the excuses against wind power that I have seen is just lame, with turbines we are trying, perhaps not perfect yet, perhaps never perfect, but energy is rising in cost, so something has to break somewhere, as nothing else is coming along that the public accept.

I have a small homemade VAWT generator on my shed to run 12v lighting and that suplemented with a solar panel. Oh sure I could just use a torch when down at the shed at night, but hey, I have power, albeit low voltage power, but its lighting and lighting made from junk,( plywood, copper wire glass fibre, a couple of worn bearings out of a motorbike wheel, a metal pole and magnets) and powered by nature for free. The beauty of VAWT, is it captures from all directions and is unobtrusive. As to birds hitting the things, some makers exclose the rotors in bird proof cages.

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RE: The End of the Oil Age ? - 6/12/2011 9:46:00 AM

Moonhead

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