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Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 6:26:06 PM

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An interesting talk by Mustafa Aykol, Deputy Editor to the Turkish Daily News on the subject of Islamic Faith versus Tradition

Mustafa Aykol goes on to explain most of the things the west sees as wrong with the Muslims, seperation of the sexes and female circumcision is the tradition of other countries that became Islamic, although it was not part of the original faith and still isn't. Traditions that came and adhered themselves to the faith, so if they adhered, then they can be unstuck, but the Muslims must be allowed to find their own way to democracy, the Arab Spring being the start of the process.

So it is clear, if we wish to have no foe to misunderstand and fight, leave them alone. mess around with them, and Islamism will rise as a backlash to those interferers that are seen as enemies.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 6:56:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

...leave them alone. mess around with them, and Islamism will rise as a backlash to those interferers that are seen as enemies.

Can you define "mess around with them"?!!

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 6:58:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

An interesting talk by Mustafa Aykol, Deputy Editor to the Turkish Daily News on the subject of Islamic Faith versus Tradition

Mustafa Aykol goes on to explain most of the things the west sees as wrong with the Muslims, seperation of the sexes and female circumcision is the tradition of other countries that became Islamic, although it was not part of the original faith and still isn't. Traditions that came and adhered themselves to the faith, so if they adhered, then they can be unstuck, but the Muslims must be allowed to find their own way to democracy, the Arab Spring being the start of the process.

So it is clear, if we wish to have no foe to misunderstand and fight, leave them alone. mess around with them, and Islamism will rise as a backlash to those interferers that are seen as enemies.

Problem is, Mr. Aykol is wrong. The two main problems most of the west has with Islam is that it is a dogma that holds religion or the orthodox Muslim state as a theocracy. The religious leaders are the govt. and once in power...never subjects itself to a plebiscite and never gives up power.

The second reason is that the west has its religious beliefs yet believes in the physical world while Islam believes only...in the mystical.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 6/11/2011 7:24:46 PM >

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 7:05:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Can you define "mess around with them"?!!

Don't fuck their women.

K.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 7:09:05 PM

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Are you proposing the intercourse between the West and Islam be restricted to the traditional gay variety? Some say there was a lot less trouble when that regimen was in place.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/11/2011 7:13:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Can you define "mess around with them"?!!

Don't fuck their women.

lol

But seriously, I'd appreciate the OP answering the question. What is meant by "mess with them" -- that's FAR too general.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 4:08:02 AM

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Having watched the video, I think saying "We" caused it, is a bit of a stretch. It certainly points out what many of us have been saying though, that not all Muslims are the same.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 5:30:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Are you proposing the intercourse between the West and Islam be restricted to the traditional gay variety? Some say there was a lot less trouble when that regimen was in place.

Hey, it worked just fine for Sir Richard Francis Burton, didn't it?

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 7:23:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Having watched the video, I think saying "We" caused it, is a bit of a stretch. It certainly points out what many of us have been saying though, that not all Muslims are the same.

I do believe that "we" (the British, French, and Americans in particular) have a long history of pissing around in the Middle East. This in turn has caused some long running animosity and hatred.

It's not surprising that manifest in a twisted form of the religion of the region. One only has to look in American and see that many of the White Supremacy groups are devotees of twisted versions of Christianity.

There are certain long running regional practices which in certain countires have been merged into Islam. Female circumcision is an excellent example. "We" are not responsible for that. That happens in many cultures where over time different elements begin to merge together.

What at times "we" are responsible for is reporting these things as one and lumping every Muslim together under one neat definition.

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 9:41:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
There are certain long running regional practices which in certain countires have been merged into Islam. Female circumcision is an excellent example. "We" are not responsible for that.

That tends to be a gold coast thing rather than an Arab one, in any case. Most of the cases over here, it's Ghanians and Somalis doing it, rather than middle eastern types.
Mind you, there have been a few cases in the Pakistani Northwest territories, mostly from headcases who think the Taliban are too slack and not taking their misogyny seriously enough...

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 10:29:35 AM

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We as in certain countries in Europe, Britain amongst them are those that became an enemy after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and furthermore, see the film Lawrence of Arabia for evidence of British underhand dealings in the region, T.E.Lawrence was against it, but fool he for believing the lies of those in high places, but honour and trust is an alien thing to those who desire to' make' from any situation.

Yes, so Britain amongst others pissed about in the region and with that pissed people off, now one thing that is apparent when people become oppressed in some way, is religion takes a hold and with religion there is always those who will use religion to propel their own agendas. But what agendas and why, well, perhaps those that have such agendas have good reason to form them, it doesn't take much, think about it what it would take for yourself to hate so much that you were prepared to risk death to achieve your aims. It is simply not just revenge, but a madness can take hold, an irrational madness where the more and more killing has to be done to sate a desire that acts more like an addiction.

But the lecture was from a Muslim who could be described as a moderate or even a modern Muslim, a guy who does not see the sense of much of what the Muslim world does, so has set out to educate himself and others, that what others are seeing is not what it is all about, but some have perverted the faith over the centuries, I suppose just like Christianity was perverted by the Catholic church to unclude many crimes against humanity and perhaps in some ways still does via church doctrine in other lands.

But of those educated people that did 9/11, as to their mind set, I have but one idea, mental illness, depression even, for that disease can change many and when one is in the grip of depression, one becomes susceptible to all kinds of input, and with depression it is known many choose religion to try and find a way out of it.

But why depression, such highly educated people, well, perhaps after all the hard work and study to become whatever, the realities of the end result do not live up to expectation and that coupled with one's personal moralities, a common ocurrenence, dissatisfaction with life and then choose your enemy to blame.

Just as an end note, how I come up with my ideas is based upon my own experience with depression, how I become depressed and I was at the point of beyond suicide ideation many times, but in that false life that is depression, I did venture into some pretty dark and destructive religious beliefss and developed an intense hatred for certain things in society, things to blame for my situation, and doing something about it I admit did come to mind on a few occaisions. I am Largely out of it now, but my hatred is replaced with cynicism about society, in time perhaps that may itself may morph into something else, but I have the ability to see some of the things men do, whereas I would never have thought it possible before.

Therefore I feel in wondering what propelled the 9/11 perpetrators, one needs to look at mental illness more than religion, as simple depression can lead to much, very much indeed.

So, America, you are off the hook in this situation, we, the Brits amongst others caused it and many Brits are sad for our country's meddlings overseas, but that does not mean as we caused it, you can add to it, so you or rather those that say they act on your behalf should also watch your step in countries that are not your own.

Edited due to too many typos, but the keyboard lacks certain keys and the brain is a bit foggy at the moment

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/12/2011 10:33:13 AM >

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 11:27:23 AM

kdsub

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That was an interesting video and I have always pointed to Turkey as an example of how Islam and democracy can work…However I think he is being too optimistic in his own country that seems to be moving toward a more radical Islamic state. I hope this is an overreaction by me.

I also think he is trying to absolve Islam from the abhorrent treatment of women in many Muslim countries. Yes the traditions may have been in the area but Islam has embraced them where most other religions have condemned them. Colonization had nothing to do with how they treat their women…at least by western standards.

I am a firm believer that a person should be able to honor and abide by any religion they please as long as their religion does not break the civil law of the land and both genders are allowed a choice to participate or not. This choice is not available to women or men in many Islamic countries and again this is the fault of Islam not colonization or tradition.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 12:11:06 PM

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Which is interesting when in the video, he notes that both men and women share the same rights at the Ka'aba, but elsewhere not, so what does this say about the faith, maybe it is purely tradition that seperates the genders and if it is tradition, then traditions change, as they have done in the west with regards the treatment of women in many respects, the vote for example, the right to have a say on who runs the country.

But I do believe before one criticises others for what they do, one needs to look to their own first, and with that the history, as it was not that far back that women in the west were chattel, even whom they married, what wealth they had was transferred over to the husband to do with what he wanted often leaving the spouse penniless.

Yeah, the west has largely moved on from the old dark days, but who says the Muslims can't do it too, for there is change afoot in the Muslim world, a move towards democracy, but that road will be long and hard, so lets please give them a break, for our societies and what we hold as right was not created overnight either, and if I read history, much blood was spilled in pursuance of that goal.

As to the Turks, I have always amired them for their history, the Mameluke then the Janisary, their attitude to different beliefs and a whole host of other things apart from them promoting the use of trousers or potur for the males wherever they conquered.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/12/2011 12:16:08 PM >

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 12:23:43 PM

kdsub

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Not that long ago I agree...but... they are not only behind in human rights they are reversing them...You listened to him...now I would research the Wahhabi's and see if they agree that it is tradition rather then Islam that guides them in the treatment of women.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 12:30:31 PM

kdsub

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He was also nonchalant in comparing a small Jewish sect and an obscure Christian unidentified sect in the mistreatment of women when millions of Muslims mistreat women...at least by western standards... Hardly a fair comparison and justification.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/12/2011 12:31:24 PM >

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 12:54:55 PM

BamaD

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Are you aware that the Janisary were the infant christian slaves raised for the sole purpose of killing Christians.?????

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 4:35:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Are you aware that the Janisary were the infant christian slaves raised for the sole purpose of killing Christians.?????

Whats your point ?

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 4:35:47 PM

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I am aware that christian and other non muslim children were raised in military service for what the empire demanded of the slave army. The janisary like the mamluke before them were an elite amongst forces. Do you not find it odd that a slave army made up of non muslim and muslim were an elite and highly respected in the Muslim world ?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 5:10:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Are you proposing the intercourse between the West and Islam be restricted to the traditional gay variety? Some say there was a lot less trouble when that regimen was in place.

Hey, it worked just fine for Sir Richard Francis Burton, didn't it?

T E Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia) would certainly agree with that!

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RE: Islamism, we caused it, but there is hope - 6/12/2011 6:27:37 PM

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few thousands years ago, 25-12 was the great day of sun,
now 25-12 its the juses birth date which is not, but it was a nice date to put it that way.
just saying its not Islam falt.

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