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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:10:11 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

I think the taxes on the rich today are nowhere near the level they were during the last depression.  If lower taxes are the cure-all, then why are we not cured today?  We should be cranking out jobs left and right under today's top tax rate. So why not?

The upcoming depression will be the first one we experience under globalization. In such a borderless age, I doubt the economic policy fixes of old will work this time around.



As you stated, we're in a different time... and it's not just taxes (though I believe we have the second/third highest tax rates on business???), but out of control Government spending, burdensome regulations, and other factors that are NOT "business friendly" and do not promote business "confidence" -- Obamacare would be one example, but there are so many other regulations.  Texas, for example, is EXTREMELY business friendly, and during this nightmare economy, Texas alone has created a whopping 38% off all jobs!!!  That's an astounding number... but again, the State is very business friendly.

I agree there are no easy fixes, and as already stated, I think it's valid that different times will likely call for different solutions -- but given we haven't even tried the "solutions" of the past, and in fact... Urkel and the gang have done the very opposite, I'd prefer to see what could be done using tools of the past.  I do believe, however, that no matter what's done, it's gonna be a painful ride... and not the "good" kind of "ouchies".  lol




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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:11:06 PM   
ArizonaBossMan


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Status: offline 		noooo, socialism brings happiness for all! NIRVANA is coming my muchachos! Dear Leader! Dear Leader! The children sing about Dear Leader!

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:12:32 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

 

The bottom got snipped off... will try to post the full graph again.  Sorry. =(   And thanks for the heads-up. =)





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 6/12/2011 3:27:23 PM >

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:28:34 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Not surprisingly, you get it WRONG... yet again!!! 




Actually, no. The fact is that your original assertion referred specifically to the money supply, and your distorted chart concerns the monetary base.

The money supply currently is understood to be M2, of which the monetary base is partially a component of.

The monetary base includes and is limited to currency and coin both in circulation and held in bank vaults, and the banks' deposits (the required minimum usually) held at the relevant FR bank.

M2 includes currency and coin in circulation but not the vault cash or FR bank deposits, but further including demand deposits and other forms of checkable deposits, travelers checks, savings accounts, CDs under $100,000, and individual money market fund accounts.

From this:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/hist/h6hist1.txt

non-seasonally adjusted M2 was $8,339.1 billion in Feb. of 2009, and $9,033.2 billion in Apr. of 2011, an increase of 8.32%.


The increase in the monetary base is due primarily to much higher levels of bank vault cash, which is understandable in an economic downturn due to people not spending as much.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/12/2011 3:52:50 PM >

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:49:44 PM   
EternalHoH


Posts: 791
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Status: offline 		Lets remember now, the financial crisis of '08 was caused by the loss of 'good' financial regs.

When the private sector free of derivative regulations racks up $700 trillion in gambling debt (which is where the 08 crisis came from, part of that 700 trillion "came due", and those gambling claims had to be bought up as "toxic assets") compared to $15 trillion from a government spending problem, methinks you are not examining the real problem.

And again, unregulated OTC derivatives are one of those 'new things' that did not exist back in the 1930s.





< Message edited by EternalHoH -- 6/12/2011 3:52:51 PM >

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:50:34 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



The "money supply" can be a function of M0, M1, M2, M3, etc.  The "monetary base" is M0... and because it is liquid, THAT is what's used for repaying the Fed, and THAT is what's reflected in the "printing of money" and "inflation" -- which is the topic at hand.

Explanation:

The monetary base is typically controlled by the institution in a country that controls monetary policy. This is usually either the finance ministry or the central bank. These institutions print currency and release it into the economy, or withdraw it from the economy, through open market transactions (i.e., the buying and selling of government bonds). These institutions also typically have the ability to influence banking activities by manipulating interest rates and changing bank reserve requirements (how much money banks must keep on hand instead of loaning out to borrowers).


So while it's understandable that you may have assumed my comment referred to M1/M2, from the above, M0 (the monetary base) is clearly what's measured when addressing the printing of money, interest rates, inflation, repayment to the "Fed", etc. -- and that's what I was generically referring to as "the money supply".  I trust this clarification will hopefully suffice.





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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:54:01 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		If you don't vacuum dollars out of circulation with taxes, you end up with inflation.

If banks don't loan, you get stagnation.

And here we are...

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:57:39 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

Lets remember now, the financial crisis of '08 was caused by the loss of 'good' financial regs.

When the private sector free of derivative regulations racks up $700 trillion in gambling debt (which is where the 08 crisis came from, part of that 700 trillion "came due", and those gambling claims had to be bought up as "toxic assets") compared to $15 trillion from a government spending problem, methinks you are not examining the real problem.

And again, unregulated OTC derivatives are one of those 'new things' that did not exist back in the 1930s.



What happened in '08 was a failing by BOTH Government (forcing banks to make bad loans) and the Wall Street delivering shitty loans to those they were forced to loan to.  I'm sure there's more involved, but that's the easiest description for that bubble bursting.




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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:59:03 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

I trust this clarification will hopefully suffice.




Yes. You,ve clarified that you don't know what you're talking about. No one who does would say money supply if speaking of the monetary base.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/12/2011 4:02:54 PM >

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 3:59:57 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you don't vacuum dollars out of circulation with taxes, you end up with inflation.



It's interest rates that are often utilized to "vacuum dollars".




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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:02:46 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



You've just proven you can't read or comprehend.  So buh-bye. 

But do feel free to act up... i'll very much enjoy reporting you to the Mods for TOS violations.





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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:03:12 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you don't vacuum dollars out of circulation with taxes, you end up with inflation.



It's interest rates that are often utilized to "vacuum dollars".





And what about a falling US dollar???

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:03:16 PM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What happened in '08 was a failing by BOTH Government (forcing banks to make bad loans) and the Wall Street delivering shitty loans to those they were forced to loan to. 




Bullshit.  Nobody was "forced" to do anything.  Everyone involved followed the money on that one, pure and simple.

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:06:32 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What happened in '08 was a failing by BOTH Government (forcing banks to make bad loans) and the Wall Street delivering shitty loans to those they were forced to loan to. 



Nobody was "forced" to do anything. 



Yes they were... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act



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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:07:59 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you don't vacuum dollars out of circulation with taxes, you end up with inflation.



It's interest rates that are often utilized to "vacuum dollars".



And what about a falling US dollar???


What about it???



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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:11:03 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What happened in '08 was a failing by BOTH Government (forcing banks to make bad loans) and the Wall Street delivering shitty loans to those they were forced to loan to. 




Bullshit.  Nobody was "forced" to do anything.  Everyone involved followed the money on that one, pure and simple.




You mean the government didn't mandate the CDOs and synthetic CDOs squared and credit default swaps?

Well huh! And all this time ...





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/12/2011 4:12:38 PM >

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:11:25 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

What happened in '08 was a failing by BOTH Government (forcing banks to make bad loans) and the Wall Street delivering shitty loans to those they were forced to loan to. 



Nobody was "forced" to do anything. 



Yes they were... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act




from that -
"The law, however, emphasizes that an institution's CRA activities should be undertaken in a safe and sound manner, and does not require institutions to make high-risk loans that may bring losses to the institution"

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:11:45 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you don't vacuum dollars out of circulation with taxes, you end up with inflation.



It's interest rates that are often utilized to "vacuum dollars".





Interest Income goes to banks. Taxes go to the government. If you just move the dollars to the banks, and they use them to "Build a Fortress Balance Sheet", then voila! Stagflation!

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:13:26 PM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


Yes they were... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act





LOL now thats funny.  You really "nailed" 2% of the "insufficient borrower" problem while ignoring the private sector's role in the other 98%.

The bad loans were created, BY THE PROFIT MOTIVE, only because Wall St made more money selling their CDS "insurance" on the securities comprised of the iffy mortgage loans.

When the crisis hit, the majority of taxpayer funds were used to buy up those ponzi insurance claims as 'toxic assets'.

Wall Street pushed the button that blew themselves up.


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RE: The Coming DEPRESSION in America / Evidently MANY o... - 6/12/2011 4:15:37 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

from that -

"The law, however, emphasizes that an institution's CRA activities should be undertaken in a safe and sound manner, and does not require institutions to make high-risk loans that may bring losses to the institution"



Aside from that, the law was enacted in 1977. If that were capable of causing what happened here, it almost assuredly should have happened years ago.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/12/2011 4:18:30 PM >

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