Does 'sub drop' actually exist?

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Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 2:19:26 PM

OwnedFemaleFlesh

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In my time in the scene, I have witnessed the evolution of this phenomenon. It used to be said that sub-drop was something that affected a submissive after a scene - where they might be tired, thirsty, possibly requiring a blanket and a glass of water or maybe just a big hug, to something that now seems to be more akin to an LSD flashback taking place hours, days or even weeks after a scene, party or other BDSM episode, and involving tears, tantrums, depression, feelings of jealousy and paranoia, self-harm and violent or irrational behaviour that can last from a few hours up to several weeks, and often requiring time off work. All of which requires a Dom who not only totally accepts and understands this behaviour, but is on hand to pamper the submissive in every way possible.

Interestingly, 'sub drop' only seems to affect women (I'm totally willing to be wrong about that, but I've never heard male submissives talking about it) and only submissives (although seemingly brought on by s&m play scenes, it seems to be submissives rather than masochists who suffer from it).

So what do you think? Am I being unfair? Or is sub-drop getting way out of hand as a BDSM phenomenon? Has sub-drop grown during your time on the scene? (I would love to hear from anyone who was doing BDSM prior to the late 90s, and whether sub-drop existed before then and if so, in what form?) Does sub drop really exist or is it just some sort of retribution from submissives who feel that their Dom owes them a self-indulgent duvet day? As a Dom, do you accept or tire of sub-drop? If sub drop does exist, is it worth it to play when it will cause this reaction? Is it similar to the male submissive who orgasms, and then wants to disassociate entirely from the BDSM activities they engaged in whilst they were horny?

chastity xxx

RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 2:25:30 PM

NocturnalStalker

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That's what they call psychosis these days?

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 2:28:19 PM

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I have honestly never heard that characterization of sub-drop (the LSD flashback version). I know that it does not just affect female submissives, I've seen male submissives experience it, and some Dominants of either gender experience their own "Dom drop," too.

It's possible that some people who are already unstable have a more pronounced response. I once saw a girl say she got cold shakes and refuse to "let" her Dom socialize with anyone, in order to engage in this pampering. But I've only seen that from that particular person, and she's not the most stable person on earth.

For me, sub drop is just a generic feeling of lowness, it doesn't happen every time, and it doesn't happen the same way or from the same kinds of play. It's not an imaginary phenomena, but it's also not something that totally takes over my life for weeks on end. I liken it to a sugar rush -- when you're amped up on too many twizzlers, and then you crash and want to go to sleep. Endorphin and excitement rushes work similarly for me.

No clue where your dramatic version of subdrop came from, but i would say that's definitely not the norm. =p

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 2:41:42 PM

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Yes, sub drop existed before there was a name for it.

Yes, male subs do experience it.

Yes, masochists can also experience it.

Yes, it can occur not just immediately after the scene, but can be a day or two later.

Here's the kicker...........

No, I don't think you're being unfair. If somebody is behaving badly weeks (your specific time frame) after a scene and blaming it on sub drop, that's a load of crap. The brain's chemistry has definitely readjusted to the regular flow of endorphins that much time after play. I'd probably give it the same amount of validity as blaming a person's lack of responsibility on sub frenzy.

Where I notice that a lot of people want to pull the sub drop card when it's just normal sadness are often those in long distance relationships when the visit comes to an end and they are a little blue from being separated from their D again. That's not drop.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:07:16 PM

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I have had the shivers, felt cold and actually thought I was having a seizure. It only lasted about 20 minutes or so. It was very scary at the time as that was the first and only time anything like that had ever happened and I had no clue what was really going on.

Master explained that it was mild sub drop and from reading about it after I would have to agree.

The thing is since I didn't know anything about it before hand I would have to say on a personal level Yes it does actually exist. Although I'm not sure it would continue on for an extended period of time...

-Katie

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:08:23 PM

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I believe it exists in any flavour of submissive, but it depends on the submissive:)

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:13:12 PM

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To refute that it's female only and reiterate what LadyPact said:

Yes, male subs get it, yes it can be immediate or delayed [never longer than a day in my experience]. One veteran sub I had the pleasure of Taking recognised it in the early 90s's, as above, before I knew there was a name for it. He hated to orgasm not because 'he wasn't horny any more', but because he would get very depressed yet agitated, insecure and needy. I, in my inexperience and yes, arrogance, didn't believe him, and when I forced him to orgasm saw him go through exactly what he described. But fortunately only once, and afterwards we both learned how to deal with the phenomenon; one happy way was that *I* got all the orgasms!

If no history of previous abuse, sounds more like manipulating personality disorder [time off work? self-harm other than a chocolate binge? unacceptable and just plain nuts], especially if her dom's pattern is to ignore her after gratification and they are feeding into her crazy. This is on the presumption that no drugs or alcohol were involved; if they were, that can certainly be a big component. I've seen 'sub regret' [as in they can't believe what they did, esp. if physical pain or marks linger], but I see no excuse for the literal histrionics you describe.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:19:03 PM

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FR

I know a couple of people (actually men, mostly) who will float for a good day and a half/two days after a heavy scene. Coming down from that is like coming down from any high - not pleasant. No tantrums or bad behaviour, but shivering and feeling miserable for sure.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:22:28 PM

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Yes it exists. No it doesn't exist because I am seeking retribution, that would be ridiculous of me.

However, what I've found is I rarely encounter it anymore - almost never with the Mister, in fact. I attribute that to a couple of things. First, he isn't as physically and emotionally hard on me as the ex owner was, and he's more attentive and caring for the relationship on a consistent basis than the ex owner was. So there are occasions when he does physically clobber me pretty good, and I'm physically and mentally wiped out after - I might get the shivers or pull into myself in a retreat, and I think it's just a mild form of the body going into shock. He helps me through it, but I'm always surprised when he does, and very grateful for it. I don't think he owes me a damn thing, but I do appreciate that he feels it's his duty to take care of me after bringing me to such a state.

I have expressed a desire to care for him afterwards, but he won't let me.

The ex was, at times, brutally hard on me - physically, mentally and emotionally - and was not a caring man in general, and would often times leave me in a heap on the floor (as in physically go home and leave for the day), leaving me to recuperate on my own. At times I wouldn't hear from him for a couple of days later, and he'd find me in a depressed state. I had to learn to pick myself up, and find other sources of care. Again, I never expected him to pick up the pieces, but I came to dread his use of me because of the awfulness afterwards.

I've asked the Mister how he feels about putting me back together, because, quite frankly, it's awkward for me. He would have it no other way, and I imagine if he "tired" of it, he wouldn't put me in that state.

I understand asking the questions you ask. I don't understand the dismissive-ness I'm perceiving behind your question.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:30:54 PM

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I can be flying high on subspace and then, after awhile when I'm calmed down again, get all tearful and weepy and need a lot of hugs and it just makes no sense to me. That will just last for a little while, like a half hour or so. Is that subdrop?

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:34:16 PM

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for the record, i didnt mean to be dismissive by mentioning the girl with the shakes. i have had shakes and tears and hard-to-explain odd feelings with sub drop, i just think that some people who are already prone to severe mood or hormone fluctuations might have a more drastic reaction.
i think the longest sub drop ever last for me was 3 days.
in my previous relationship, i'd get it, and since we didn't live together, there were times when i had to see to it myself, but for the most part, the clean up was also part of what he enjoyed.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 3:36:19 PM

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I have only had it happen once. From what I have found its not that uncommon for it to happen your first time.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:00:14 PM

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For what it's worth, the article below proposes that Sub Drop can manifest quite some time after a scene, although common sense would dictate that equilibrium would be restored within a few days.

For me, immediately afterwards I might get so cold I shake. I've learned to be prepared to bundle up and dive under the covers. I don't drink much beforehand (not wanting to stop for a bathroom break) so I'm a tad dehydrated afterwards, and the electrolytes in sports drinks help with sub drop. Before I started this, I noticed that I was impaired while driving home (I hadn't drunk alcohol.) My fuel light was on and my reaction time was so bad that I kept seeing gas stations after it was too late to pull in to them. I ended up pulling over and tearfully calling my playmate, who guided me in to the next gas station. If I understand your submissive/masochist distinctions correctly, in this relationship, I was a maso rather than a sub.

Now I make sure I eat afterwards too - chocolate helps with endorphins, YAY!

quote:

Interestingly, 'sub drop' only seems to affect women ... [snip]...and only submissives (although seemingly brought on by s&m play scenes, it seems to be submissives rather than masochists who suffer from it).

If I understand your submissive/masochist distinctions correctly, in this relationship, I was a maso rather than a sub.

http://www.submissiveguide.com/2009/03/sub-drops-emotional-side/

Sub Drop is the emotional and physical affects of the release and drop of endorphins in the body after a play session. Most of what you read online are the physical aspects; the fatigue, sadness, aches and pains and recovery from marks. There is a more intense side of Sub Drop that gets very little attention because for each person it is different and describing how to recover can take many forms.

If not cared for, you could go into depression just from one play session. The endorphins and other hormones released during play leave your body in such a way that it takes time to rebuild the balance of hormones in your system. You could feel like you have a hang over or partied too hard the night before, you could feel lost and depressed for hours or days. You may just want to sleep it off. These are the more extreme forms of Drop. Some people recover in a matter of hours, but others could exhibit signs of Sub Drop for weeks after an intense session.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 6/13/2011 4:16:28 PM >

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:07:04 PM

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~FR~
From a purely physical standpoint, there are biological responses to pain and to fear. The aftermath of those things can create a new sensation/experience.
The emotional response to some light hypnosis - which often accompanies play (that's really what it is when you get all ooey gooey dreamy because of "his voice") - can have an effect. The aftermath of that an also create a new sensation/experience.
Biological / psychological responses to pseudo-trauma (which is what we're talking about) really do exist.

It's not so much that it's a big magical thing. It's just, cause and effect.

ymmv,
sunshine

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:08:45 PM

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quote:

now seems to be more akin to an LSD flashback taking place hours, days

I had this once after a crazy weekend - the colors, the colors!

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:10:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
It's just, cause and effect.

Perfectly and simply put.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:32:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
It's just, cause and effect.

Thank you Sir Issac Newton.

If I had to describe "Sub-Drop". I would say is akin to a kick in the balls.(some people like that kind of thing I however am not one of them)

Sub space(at least for me) feels like you are floating endlessly wrapped in a warm soft blanket. Very cozy.
Then cold hard reality comes along and kicks you in the nuts.

That is Sub drop(for me) and a great metaphor for life.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:44:06 PM

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OP
Yes it exists and us guys experience it also. But it is no excuse for poor behaviour. We are grown adults and need to act like grown adults.

My personal experience is more akin to having an adrenaline rush days later and then shortly after the after effects of the adrenaline wearing off which leaves the body tired and the mind emotionally drained.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:44:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OwnedFemaleFlesh
In my time in the scene, I have witnessed the evolution of this phenomenon.

Nice controversial opener. I love it. :) Hope you don't take a lot of flack--or if you do, I hope you don't take it too seriously. I've been doing "it" (slavery only) since the mid-80s. I've never experienced sub-drop although I've suffered some very intense beatings. I didn't hear the term until about 2006 or so when I started to lurk in the message boards here. The term "aftercare" is older than sub-drop and has a longer history. I heard plenty of people in the mid-late 90s complain that "he didn't provide any aftercare." Sometimes they had a legitimate beef. A dominant (an old "a.s.b. superstar" whose name I will refrain from mentioning) once flew into town briefly to see a good friend of mine who had a big crush on him. He used her then left. No cuddling afterwards, no talk. Just said, "I have to catch a plane" (maybe he did) and left abruptly. She was hurt and shocked by that because he'd done some rather extreme physical and emotional things to her. Luckily she had us (my former master and myself) to help her with this. Part of her 'drop' (if you can call it that) was just simple expectations being crushed. She met this man she deeply admired and he treated her pretty cavalierly. She wasn't his slave nor expecting to be a slave so I'm sure she expected a little affection from her net ghod, a little show of care for her feelings. I have also experienced something like this. Met him, had a very interesting time, he left later that evening, no aftercare asked for or required. I had had the time of my life! Why would I want some silly, cuddly aftercare to ruin the intensity? I felt no bad feelings at all afterwards, although I was extremely sore the next day. I think lack of sub-drop was partially due to the fact that I just don't go there (I have a good amount self-control) but mostly because I was meeting a prospective master and the ground rules/understanding was that anything he wanted goes. So no drop here--in part because there were no expectations to be crushed. There was a lot of laughing at myself for feeling/walking like an out-of-shape 80-year-old, and later, online, when I told him that, he laughed at me, too.

I've noticed too that sub-drop seems to be more in use with submissive women than with sub men. I'm not sure why that is except maybe that guys are raised to be tough and hold it in. Like a lot of bad ideas, it's extremely catchy. People see "sub-drop" discussed online and then think that it's appropriate that they feel it too since so many others complain about it. I wonder sometimes if words like this are interpreted by those new to bdsm as "If you don't feel sub-drop you aren't a real submissive." So they make certain they feel it? I don't know if it is getting out of hand--it might just be an extremely infectious subcultural meme. But I agree with you that the idea is starting to evolve. That happens to popular concepts: they change their meaning as more and more people use them and apply their own interpretations to them. I really do wish submissive women did less of the whole "spoil me, pamper me, take care of me" routine. In my eyes it makes them much less attractive.

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RE: Does 'sub drop' actually exist? - 6/13/2011 4:51:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mummyman321

OP
Yes it exists and us guys experience it also. But it is no excuse for poor behaviour. We are grown adults and need to act like grown adults.

My personal experience is more akin to having an adrenaline rush days later and then shortly after the after effects of the adrenaline wearing off which leaves the body tired and the mind emotionally drained.

Nods. Agree entirely about "grown adults."

And I've experienced something like what you describe too. I don't know about days later, but for me there is usually no pain nor lack of energy during the event...it only hits the next day. Payback day. That is similar to other heavy exertion I've experienced, like helping someone move. I go all day, the muscles are warm and fluid, I don't feel a thing...but the next day I can barely stand.

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