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RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 8:26:02 AM

SilverMark

Posts: 3457
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I don't carry a gun

...but hey, if I can smoke, sip a cold one, gamble and pay less taxes, I think life is pretty good!

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The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 21

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 8:27:04 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
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Fair enough.

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 22

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 8:37:36 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Mercatus Center, source of this nonsense, is a libertarian think tank funded by the Koch brothers.

Jeeez, now libertarians are shit too?

K.

The Koch brothers suck ass... it is all about their rights to rape the planet, and make more money. I do not want to be free to live in a Koch cesspool. Kinda like living in the Potter Houses in the movie "Its a Wonderful Life"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 23

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 8:41:47 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am think that those who feel restricted by our laws should just get the fuck out. We have too many people here as it is, the whiners won't be missed

Charming. Lovely. Right up there with, "America, Love it or Leave it".

K.

No, it isn't, I never took you for someone who would conflate statements....

You have the right to try to stay and change California as a resident, but you are just pissing in the wind. I do not know how many people come here year after year after year, from other "free states" and complain about it. Its like, if things were so fucking wonderful where you come from, why did you come here? And if you like the red state you hail from, go back.... we ain't changing for you.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 24

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 8:42:18 AM

Anarrus

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Joined: 11/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Because of the dumber-than-rocks people in my state, and the assholes that think it is okay to annoy people because they are selfish pricks, we have had to legislate common fucking sense.

Mostly this.^

Laws and regulations come into being in many cases often because people fail to act civily and responsibly...with regard to others, the community, the environment, etc. Unfortunately, common sense is probably the hardest thing in the world to regulate as well as defining and reaching a genaral consensus on what is right, fair and just.

I'm no great fan of rules and regualtions, however I understand that for society to function at least somewhat well, they have to exist.

Kris Kristofferson said it best in Me & Bobby Magee "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"

Thanks for the post Kirata.

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:00:08 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

Strange tho,cons used to call Clinton a liberal governor but he had the lowest taxes/services of any state in the nation,ei. republican wet-dream.

What was that Forest Gump said?

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 26

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:00:13 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Laws and regulations come into being in many cases often because people fail to act civily and responsibly...with regard to others, the community, the environment, etc. Unfortunately, common sense is probably the hardest thing in the world to regulate as well as defining and reaching a genaral consensus on what is right, fair and just.

I'm no great fan of rules and regualtions, however I understand that for society to function at least somewhat well, they have to exist.

I love people, do not get me wrong. I think the vast majority of people are swell, but some people have no sense of proportion.

I take the view that your freedom ends at my doorstep, and I mean doorstep figuratively.. If people want to be free to do what they want for the most part, they need to move out into the boonies where they will not be bugging other people with it. If they want a low tax burden, they need to live in an area that does not provide services so that they can fairly say "I do not use this so I am not paying for it".

If you want to live in civilization, you have to be civilized, or you will be penalized for it. You have to pay taxes for services. You have to be quiet at night. You have to be more mindful of the pollution you emit. You have to consider others, and if you are a rude mutha fucka, you are not going to be happy or feel free around others.

As far as the gun crap, again, if you want to carry a weapon everywhere you go, you need a conceal and carry permit, or you need to live in the boonies.

See, no one cares what you are doing if it doesn't impact them... meaning it doesn't foul their water, their air, or their land. Communities decide how they want to run things for themselves.

And you can gamble in many places in California

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 27

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:04:22 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

This study comprehensively ranks the American states on their public policies that affect individual freedoms in the economic, social, and personal spheres.

WTF is this even based on? Fees? THAT'S the only measure of freedom? Pretty funny.
It's absurd to me that it's no longer based on whether you can speak your mind about things.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 28

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:04:25 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Well said.....II do not envision looking at this "freedom map" should I be contemplating a move in the future.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:06:55 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

This study comprehensively ranks the American states on their public policies that affect individual freedoms in the economic, social, and personal spheres.

WTF is this even based on? Fees? THAT'S the only measure of freedom? Pretty funny.
It's absurd to me that it's no longer based on whether you can speak your mind about things.

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime...

Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better

Or freedom to join a union

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SternSkipper)

Post #: 30

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:07:43 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

You have to control lots of people that live together because people are often inconsiderate and stupid assholes.

I didn't know you lived in a red state

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:13:14 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Because of the dumber-than-rocks people in my state, and the assholes that think it is okay to annoy people because they are selfish pricks, we have had to legislate common fucking sense.

Laws and regulations come into being in many cases often because people fail to act civily and responsibly...with regard to others, the community, the environment, etc.... I'm no great fan of rules and regualtions, however I understand that for society to function at least somewhat well, they have to exist.

Hey, I agree with both of you on that. No dispute at all. Certain laws are necessary to maintain responsible and civil interchange. But wouldn't you be inclined to admit that a lot of laws go way beyond that?

K.

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 32

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:14:39 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime...

Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better

Or freedom to join a union

Yup ... and based on those criteria, mass should be powder blue.
We have the kind of issues that fuel the tea Partiers to want to turn us into a pink state. But I pretty much do what the hell I want here... And when my kid goes graduates high school, he can go to MIT as an in state student and my daughter can get that veterinary degree she wants from Worcester polytech.
And I can sail on waters that would make the rest of you shit your pants for the better part of the year

I could be doing worse freedom-wise.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 33

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:22:09 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime... Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better... Or freedom to join a union

No argument. And if you look at the factors they considered (graphic here) you'll find that restrictions on marriage, marijuana use, and civil liberties in general, are among those that weigh against the degree of freedom in a state.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/16/2011 9:23:33 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 34

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:32:33 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

I'm no great fan of rules and regualtions, however I understand that for society to function at least somewhat well, they have to exist.

And, to that extent, they can create a *greater* sense of freedom and well-being.

We're not "free" if we're continually worried about safety and security, for example.

(in reply to Anarrus)

Post #: 35

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 9:43:19 AM

SternSkipper

Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline

Well ... at least I am satisfied on why there is actually a hidden or unconscious bias away from actual civil freedoms...

Here's an article explaining their collective thought process from the outside:

http://www.desmogblog.com/koch-and-george-mason-university

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 36

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 10:00:53 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Hey, I agree with both of you on that. No dispute at all. Certain laws are necessary to maintain responsible and civil interchange. But wouldn't you be inclined to admit that a lot of laws go way beyond that?

Which ones do you personally find odious?

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 37

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 10:12:53 AM

Anarrus

Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anarrus
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Because of the dumber-than-rocks people in my state, and the assholes that think it is okay to annoy people because they are selfish pricks, we have had to legislate common fucking sense.

Laws and regulations come into being in many cases often because people fail to act civily and responsibly...with regard to others, the community, the environment, etc.... I'm no great fan of rules and regualtions, however I understand that for society to function at least somewhat well, they have to exist.

Hey, I agree with both of you on that. No dispute at all. Certain laws are necessary to maintain responsible and civil interchange. But wouldn't you be inclined to admit that a lot of laws go way beyond that?K.

No disagreement there at all.
Unfortunately many of our laws are based in our Judeo-Christian heritage and their moral teachings. Blue laws (still on the books in some places),the struggle with prohibition during part of the 20th century along with the arcaic laws concerning marijuana use today, the controversy over abortion, laws against polygamy and alternative sexual choices among conscenting adults in general are just a few off the top of my head.

Laws designed to impose ones personal and religious moral values over another are probably some of the most restricting to individual freedoms. Again and unfortunately so, there are probably more emotionally charged and vile arguments over personal and moral freedoms and laws that govern them than any other form of political or social argument....and often it's religion vs. reason.

_____________________________

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."...Goethe
"Send lawyers, guns and money" ..Warren Zevon

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 38

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 10:37:07 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime... Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better... Or freedom to join a union

No argument. And if you look at the factors they considered (graphic here) you'll find that restrictions on marriage, marijuana use, and civil liberties in general, are among those that weigh against the degree of freedom in a state.

K.

I note you left out union rights is that because the study treats union rights as something that reduces freedom?

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 39

RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 6/16/2011 10:57:06 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Or sexual freedom, the freedom to have sexual relationships with people of the same gender and not be prosecuted for a crime...

Or freedom to smoke a joint if your sick and it makes you feel better

Or freedom to join a union

Yup ... and based on those criteria, mass should be powder blue.
We have the kind of issues that fuel the tea Partiers to want to turn us into a pink state. But I pretty much do what the hell I want here... And when my kid goes graduates high school, he can go to MIT as an in state student and my daughter can get that veterinary degree she wants from Worcester polytech.
And I can sail on waters that would make the rest of you shit your pants for the better part of the year
I could be doing worse freedom-wise.

Stern, last night on the News they announced that Mayor Tom "Mumbles" Menino ordered the bars in the Garden area closed after the 2nd period of the Bruins playoff game! Gee, so much for "lawfull gathering" or free assembly. The first amendment be damned!
I hope those bar owners sue him for that.
And during the Democratic Convention they had,....."free speech zones", chainlink fences fashioned into cages that they'd lock people into who wanted to protest the convention.
Menino has to be "the" dumbest mayor in the country.
And if you want a permit to carry concealed forget it, that's left to the sole discretion of the local police cheifs! And they rarely grant them, so the first and second amendments take a real beating in that state!
My brother-in-laws brother in law had a "permit" for 20 years and all of a sudden the local police chief said he wouldn't renew it so he had to take the cheif to court and of course he won. He's since moved to New Hampshire.
I don't see why anyone should need a "permit" to excercise a right. You don't need a "permit" to vote.
The whole mindset in that state is that "the govt." is there o tell the People what to do and not to *serve* the People!
They have it exactly reversed. It's a repressive type of government not a progressive type of government.
Look at what happened when they wanted to put clean energy wind mills in Cape Cod Bay, Sens Kennedy and Kerry put a stop to it because it would "spoil their view."

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to SternSkipper)

Post #: 40

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