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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 3:29:58 PM

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You miscieve me greatly. There is nothing before the big bang, absolutely nothing, even if there ever was, if god plays dice, then he can play every game and shakes them, rolls them out and at some time they return to his hand.

I can only exploit things in the realm I am in, and from here to there, not before and not after, so there is nothing outside those boundries.

In the ponderable universe is where material things exist, without there is only void.

It would not matter one whit that 20gabilliongazilliongamillion years ago there was a big bang (god cast the dice) nothing was before or after for anyone ever. And when it went back to singularity (returned to his hand) from its expansion there was nothing before or after for anyone ever. We only exist in this throw of the dice. Always did, always will.

Nobody is looking before the big bang, or after our sun dies out, because there is nothing to exploit (jules human agency)

Think about that, if you cant exploit it, it does not exist will not exist and did not exist.

Per-i-fucking-od.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 6/23/2011 3:33:36 PM >

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 3:36:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

The NDEs and OBEs that people point to as "evidence" have almost all been artificially recreated.

Well since you're making this claim without backing it up or even explaining its logic...

Wanna fill in those two details?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2011 3:50:00 PM >

(in reply to lickenforyou)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 4:35:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

we always have been and always will be in that respect, it is a simple matter of the rearragement of atoms........

Or the things that atoms are made of, like electrons and neutrons, or the things that they are made of, quarks for example... and who knows what quarks are made out of.... how infinitely small do we want to go?

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 4:40:45 PM

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quote:

You and everyone else able to function also assume everything is natural but you do not want to admit that basic fact to yourself.

Back that assertion up with a direct quote from me, where have I ever said there was a "supernatural" world that I believe in completely...

quote:

That knowledge does not prevent me from being interested in expanding what is understood. However I do not buy into something unless there is data to support it. I also happen to be a trained mathematician so when some popular article starts talking about string theory and the possibility that it will unify the forces I can go dig out the actual articles and work through the math myself and see that string theory does not unify the forces and does not make any testable predictions. I then checked with a particle physicist I know and she confirmed that my math was correct and the theory makes no predictions not accounted for by existing theory, which means string theory fails Occam's Razor. So until someone comes up with some new twist that does produce a testable prediction I don't concern myself with it, it is not my area of interest.

Hmmmm.... who am I going to believe, you, or experts in their field?

quote:

I am curious without believing in ghosts or angels or other supernatural nonsense and no amount of demands by others will change the fact that that stuff is nonsense.

Oh yes, lets attempt to reduce my position to that of one of a ghost believer...

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 4:59:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

That knowledge does not prevent me from being interested in expanding what is understood. However I do not buy into something unless there is data to support it. I also happen to be a trained mathematician so when some popular article starts talking about string theory and the possibility that it will unify the forces I can go dig out the actual articles and work through the math myself and see that string theory does not unify the forces and does not make any testable predictions. I then checked with a particle physicist I know and she confirmed that my math was correct and the theory makes no predictions not accounted for by existing theory, which means string theory fails Occam's Razor. So until someone comes up with some new twist that does produce a testable prediction I don't concern myself with it, it is not my area of interest.

Hmmmm.... who am I going to believe, you, or experts in their field?

Experts in their field saying string theory predicts nothing or is a failure:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/30917
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/57257-Podcast-String-Theory-Time-Travel-White-Holes-Warp-Speed-Multiple-Dimensions-and-Before-the-Big-Bang
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/04/science/04edgehed.html?pagewanted=3&oref=login

As a matter of fact I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 5:03:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

The NDEs and OBEs that people point to as "evidence" have almost all been artificially recreated.

Well since you're making this claim without backing it up or even explaining its logic...

Wanna fill in those two details?

K.

http://dailygrail.com/Interviews/2004/4/Dr-Rick-Strassman-Conversation-DMT

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 5:06:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 5:10:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

K.

And note links on that page to other articles on the testablility of string theory. KD is only about 7 years behind.

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 5:10:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

K.

Thank you

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 5:39:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

The NDEs and OBEs that people point to as "evidence" have almost all been artificially recreated.

Well since you're making this claim without backing it up or even explaining its logic...

Wanna fill in those two details?

K.

Out-of-body experience recreated
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm

The God Helmet
http://science.discovery.com/videos/through-the-wormhole-the-god-experience.html

Near-Death Experiences Explained? Bright lights, angelic visions products of too much CO2 in the blood, study says.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

These are a few instances where NDEs and OBEs have been somewhat replicated.

-----------------

Dr. John Greenfield: Professor of Neurology at the University of Toledo, College of Medicine. Trained in neurology and clinical neurophysiology and EEG, board certified in reading EEGs. Talking about having a complex near-death experience, as it’s described, without anything showing up on their EEG.

Dr. John Greenfield: “Well, as I mentioned to you before, I think the likelihood of that is pretty low.”

He said pretty low not impossible. All I’m saying is that there is not definite proof. We simply don’t know enough about the brain to be making definitive claims one way or the other. As I’ve said I hope like hell (probably shouldn’t use that word) that there is something beyond this life. But without any proof I just can’t live my life as if it’s so.

Edited to fix formatting.

< Message edited by lickenforyou -- 6/23/2011 5:42:19 PM >

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 7:15:04 PM

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Unless we're talking past each other, the issue here is whether or not consciousness arises solely from brain function and is totally dependent upon it. In other words, whether consciousness is possible without brain function.

So let's see if we can set some things aside by stipulating to a few points of agreement. Let's stipulate that consciousness and the brain are tightly coupled, at least in normal circumstances. Let's further stipulate that individuals can be caused to have experiences artificially, by a variety of interventions ranging from the direct electrical stimulation of brain tissues to various chemicals. And let's also stipulate that in some cases, particularly with certain of those chemicals, e.g., LSD, Psilocybin, DMT, the experiences that arise have qualities which are (descriptively at least) "mystical," i.e., visions of a clear white light, feelings of being at one with the universe, etc.

By what logic are you relating these various cases where the subjects are conscious and have active brain function to the question of whether consciousness is possible without brain function?

And those aside, despite the National Geographic headline consider the following from the article body:

The one difficulty in arguing that CO2 is the cause is that in cardiac arrests, everybody has high CO2 but only 10 percent have NDEs," said neuropsychiatrist Peter Fenwick of the Institute of Psychiatry at Kings College London. What's more, in heart attack patients, Fenwick said, "there is no coherent cerebral activity which could support consciousness, let alone an experience with the clarity of an NDE."

What you have actually cited here is evidence that lucid consciousness is possible without brain function. The article continues...

The main alternative is that near-death experiences are "evidence of consciousness becoming separated from the physical substrate of the brain, possibly even a glimpse of an afterlife," the University of London's French noted. But for him, at least, "the latest results argue strongly against such a hypothesis."

The results "argue strongly against." Fucking unbelievable. Straight in the face of the data.

Evidence indeed, that one, thanks. But not, I think, of what you intended on either count.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2011 8:15:16 PM >

(in reply to lickenforyou)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 8:14:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

K.

Except that isn't actually what this scientist is claiming. What he actually claimed is that some math he did on string theory was similiar to the math that explains quantum entanglement. I checked for publications under his name and he still hasn't published any results.

To epic fail wilbur I also checked the other articles with proposed tests and also I found no publications indicating the tests had suceeded.

Science is not done by press release.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 8:15:48 PM

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.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2011 8:16:12 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 8:21:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

Except that isn't actually what this scientist is claiming.

The discovery that string theory seems to make predictions about quantum entanglement is completely unexpected, but because quantum entanglement can be measured in the lab, it does mean that at last researchers can test predictions based on string theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Science is not done by press release.

Physical Review Letters is a prestigious peer reviewed scientific journal published by the American Physical Society.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2011 8:28:50 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 8:39:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Researchers Discover How to Conduct First Test of 'Untestable' String Theory

Except that isn't actually what this scientist is claiming.

The discovery that string theory seems to make predictions about quantum entanglement is completely unexpected, but because quantum entanglement can be measured in the lab, it does mean that at last researchers can test predictions based on string theory.

not a quote of the scientist but the author of the ress release. What the researcher said was that the maths were similiar. What he actually did say

quote:

This will not be proof that string theory is the right 'theory of everything' that is being sought by cosmologists and particle physicists

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Science is not done by press release.

Physical Review Letters is a prestigious peer reviewed scientific journal published by the American Physical Society.

But what you're quoting from is the press release.
The actual journal article "Four-Qubit Entanglement Classification from String Theory" doesn't state that any experiments have been performed.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 8:49:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

not a quote of the scientist but the author of the ress release. What the researcher said was...

What the researcher said was...

"If experiments prove that our predictions about quantum entanglement are correct, this will demonstrate that string theory 'works' to predict the behaviour of entangled quantum systems," said Professor Mike Duff FRS, lead author of the study from the Department of Theoretical Physics at Imperial College London.

Nobody, anywhere as far as I know, said or even remotely suggested that this chance to test string theory would, or could, prove it's the "right theory of everything." Please do not start littering the place with your little straw toys again.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 9:07:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

not a quote of the scientist but the author of the ress release. What the researcher said was...

What the researcher said was...

"If experiments prove that our predictions about quantum entanglement are correct, this will demonstrate that string theory 'works' to predict the behaviour of entangled quantum systems," said Professor Mike Duff FRS, lead author of the study from the Department of Theoretical Physics at Imperial College London.

Nobody, anywhere as far as I know, said or even remotely suggested that this chance to test string theory would, or could, prove it's the "right theory of everything." Please do not start littering the place with your little straw toys again.

K.

Do you even know what string theory is?

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 9:07:30 PM

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Here is what you said (emboldened for emphasis)

quote:

As a matter of fact I know of no scientist who has claimed string theory is ever likely to make a testable prediction.

The article that Kirata posted refutes the above

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 9:35:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you even know what string theory is?

I know English. You should learn it. We use it a lot around here.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/23/2011 9:41:40 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/23/2011 9:41:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

http://dailygrail.com/Interviews/2004/4/Dr-Rick-Strassman-Conversation-DMT

Yep, and here's one for you...

Johns Hopkins study finds Psilocybin dosage 'sweet spot' for positive and lasting effect

K.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

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