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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 9:25:49 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp".


http://www.campquest.org/

Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 9:32:01 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.


And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 9:36:26 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.


And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed.

you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 9:44:23 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.


And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed.

you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur.



What sort of non sequitur do you find it to be, there are several varieties, you know



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 11:44:21 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.


And yet quantum mechanics and quantum theory shows that the rules that science is based upon can be called into question, such as reality can be measured and observed without changing what is being observed.

you meant cannot. And your response seems to be at best a non sequitur.



What sort of non sequitur do you find it to be, there are several varieties, you know



The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 11:51:20 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is.


What I meant by the comment was not a non sequitor, but goes to the very heart of how valid science is, which is that there is more than the material world, there is human consciousness that interacts with it. In essence, the ideational factor that science does not acknowledge is indeed part of "nature" even though it is not based in the material world

Now, you may not like my observation about science and materialism, it may not be what you feel like discussing... but in an open forum of ideas, I am allowed to use your post as a springboard through which I assert a new idea.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 12:37:41 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.

Another priest showing off his whore...

The natural sciences seek to understand the physical causes of physical effects and the laws by which they proceed. They do not inherently assume that the objective publicly verifiable world of experience is all there is, and they most certainly are not in the business of promulgating the metaphysical doctrines of a cranky religious cult that flatly declares that that's all there is.

Door => Ass

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/20/2011 1:08:29 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 12:47:31 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp".


http://www.campquest.org/

Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous.



Did I say they were equal in any way? He said he didnt know of an atheist camp. I showed him there were.

_____________________________

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:20:21 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

science is materialism. Specifically science operates under the philosophy of methodological naturalism, i.e. science operates by assuming that nothing besides the material world exists. To assume otherwise prevents science from being done.

Another priest showing off his whore...

The natural sciences seek to understand the physical causes of physical effects and the laws by which they proceed. They do not inherently assume that the objective publicly verifiable world of experience is all there is, and they most certainly are not in the business of promulgating the metaphysical doctrines of a cranky religious cult that flatly declares that that's all there is.

Door => Ass

K.


Yes, the scientist must assume, actually everyone does all the time, that there is nothing but the material world. Without that underlying assumption then you never know what caused something becaue it could always have been an angel or demon acting. You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements. I suggest you start with Methodological Naturalism and then move on to Popper and Kant.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:21:34 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I've watched "Jesus Camp". I've never heard of the equivalent "Atheist Camp".


http://www.campquest.org/

Equating Camp Quest to the organization shown in that documentary is absolutely outrageous.



Did I say they were equal in any way? He said he didnt know of an atheist camp. I showed him there were.

he wrote that he never heard of the athesit equivalent to Jesus Camp. Camp Quest is a long long way from being equivalent to that.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:29:05 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The existence of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle does not change the fact that science operates upon the assumption that the material world is all there is.


What I meant by the comment was not a non sequitor, but goes to the very heart of how valid science is, which is that there is more than the material world, there is human consciousness that interacts with it. In essence, the ideational factor that science does not acknowledge is indeed part of "nature" even though it is not based in the material world

Now, you may not like my observation about science and materialism, it may not be what you feel like discussing... but in an open forum of ideas, I am allowed to use your post as a springboard through which I assert a new idea.

You fundamentally misunderstand Heisenberg and misunderstand the materialist's view of consciousness.

Heisenberg is fairly simple until people who don't understand it start describing it. At the quantum scale it is impossible to know both a particles precise position and vector. This is simply because at the quantum scale any attempt to observe the particle requires interacting with it and that interaction must necessarily affect the particle. For instance to "see" a particle requires hitting the particle with photons. Those photons transfer energy to the observed particle so while we would know the position based on the reflected light we cannot know how fast and in what direction it is now moving.

For the materialist consciousness is not something seperate from the brain. It is an expression of the functioning of the physical brain.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:43:39 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		I am not talking about the Heisenberg Principle. I am talking about The Observer Effect, although human consciousness is not necessary for the effect to happen

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:45:24 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Schroediger, Heisenberg, Einstein.

gotta be a heavy metal group in there, hah?

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:50:42 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Schroediger


His cat might be pertinent to the issue at hand, also

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 2:56:23 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		That, the collapsing function of the Danish interpretation (and goddammit, I know you had that one video Nova as I said, and I asked you for it separately from your post one time) that was about how thoughts affect quantum ..... and many other issues...

But that was prolly 4 or 5 years ago.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 3:09:34 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I looked for the fuckin' thing, I swear I did!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 3:10:26 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I know, and it's ok, it was good though. 

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 3:14:39 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen




For the materialist consciousness is not something seperate from the brain. It is an expression of the functioning of the physical brain.


Sorry DK, any attempt to explain the expression and/or function of consciousness that omits reference to culture is inadequate IMHO. Descartes was wrong, plain and simple.

One unavoidable implication of this is that it poses serious challenges to any claim to 'scientific objectivity' or 'scientific detachment'.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/20/2011 3:16:13 PM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 3:21:50 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements...

This coming from a priest who claims that "science is materialism"?

I suggest you learn the difference between science and philosophy.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The W... - 6/20/2011 3:24:34 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You really should study the philosophy of science some before making grand wrong pronouncements...

This coming from a priest who claims that "science is materialism"?

I suggest you learn the difference between science and philosophy.

K.


Materialism in philosophy has direct connotations to me, they go back to Hegel (idealist) and Marx (materialist), but that is just my German philosophy geek-on that is getting stimulated by such talk


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 160
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