Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship

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curiousNkinky -> Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/18/2011 7:53:43 PM)
Before you say its in the wrong forum, I want to make clear that this deals with the dom perspective a lot. My Fiancée and I have been together for over 6 years and BDSM came up relatively early in the relationship. I accept it and I want to be a part of it and give her what she wants, but when we try to get into a scene, it has always gone poorly for a multitude of reasons. One problem is that we both identify as subs. The second problem is that shes actually not completely sure what she identifies as because we haven't successfully played enough for her to properly experience the different aspects of D/S to be sure of what she really wants. The third problem is that as much as I want to get into the dom role (and have actually gotten some enjoyment out of it at times), I don't think I ever have been completely in the dom mindset. I have what I've seen called Nice Guy Syndrome. Its hard for me to get over the bridge and fully embrace control, dominance, pain-giving, and humiliation-giving. Because of all these things, the more we try, the more we fail, the more resistant and difficult she becomes towards giving me control and working with me. I feel I know what she wants, and I feel like I know what I need to do. I just want to know how I can stop holding back, giving in, and seeing her as the lovemuffin of my vanilla life and to start spanking her, owning her, and seeing her as the filthy slut I know she is in the bedroom.

LadyPact -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/18/2011 8:17:15 PM)
My first question to you would be does she get a good enough Dom or even Top vibe from you to make the scenes work? That may be exactly where your disconnect is. While you may be getting some enjoyment from it, doing all of the motions right, etc, you may just not have the presence that is needed for it. I know folks in s/s couples who are able to service top each other and it works out fine for what they want out of it. Let Me give you another perspective. My primary relationship is to My husband who happens to be another Dominant. BDSM does not work in any aspect for us because neither of us are submissive and we don't like being on the bottom. For this reason, we decided that the best way to fulfill that part of ourselves was to become poly. We both top other people, there are times that we co-top, and I've had My boy collared to Me for almost four years now. Have you considered the possibility of playing with other people, either separately or together? It would be a way for your wants to get met, even if you didn't want another person as a part of your lives all of the time. You and your gal (as the primary relationship) could work out the details that you feel comfortable with and then find the person(s) who would find those terms acceptable. It doesn't have to include sex if you don't want it to. It could just be for a service only or S/m play outlet. In the meantime, you might want to get out to your local BDSM community for some helpful advice on topping scenarios that you may do better with.

DesFIP -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/18/2011 8:47:25 PM)
You might feel more comfortable topping her if you were sure you were doing it right. So I'll second Lady Pact's suggestion of joining your local community. But not to immediately open your relationship. Instead, take classes and workshops. Identify people who might mentor you. Because it's hard to give off dominant vibes when you aren't comfortable doing this. And if you're uncomfortable from lack of experience, then learning how to will give you that confidence.

curiousNkinky -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 12:03:11 AM)
Well as for opening up the relationship, we've tried that and we weren't ready for it at the time and it may or may not be an option in the future. Its been talked about to bring an outside dominant into our bedroom,but there is discussion to be had on that still. You both mentioned vibes, and I completely agree that that is the issue. I find that it stems from not being able to get into the dom role completely. It seems like its something you're born with, to be able to think in that way, to be in that "gear". For instance she showed me a video off of kink.com where a punishment was putting ginger root in the ass of the sub because it produces a burning sensation, and I couldn't wrap my head around the train of thought someone would have to be on to get to that ending. Its like a disconnect from the mind frame of the dom. It almost feels like some fundamental reasoning is missing. Like, I asked her once: "Well what if you 'behave' the way I want you to, does that mean you don't get the punishment you want?" She told me "Well, i wouldn't make it that easy, but even if I did, you could just as easily find some little contrite excuse to punish me for something, anything really." I hadn't even conceived of the idea of just practically fabricating a reason to be punishing, never even crossed my mind, but it made sense when she told me.

DarkSteven -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 5:35:57 AM)
Okay. Her problem is that she has no experience and is going by porn. She thinks that she needs to be punished, and she doesn't. A lot of spanking porn is geared like that - submissive gets punished for some reason or other. In what I consider a healthy D/s relationship, there are two kinds of spankings/sessions - one for punishment, and one for nonpunishment reasons (frequently called funishment). Accept that you can spank her. When you want to. For no reason except that YOU WANT TO. And afterwards, expect really good sex. Because you want it, and because she's going to feel driven to please you sexually. Sometime today or in the next few days, simply tell her to go get a hairbrush (a flat one, not a cylindrical type) and bring it to you, and to strip. And then to get over your lap. She'll ask you why - respond "Because I think you need one", or "Because I want to spank you." DO NOT assign it to a specific thing she did. It's because you want to, and because you CAN. Once she's in position, take your time. Pinch her rump. Poke it. Pinch or stroke her nipples. Start spanking when you're ready, not before. This reinforces that you're in charge and you'll do what you want. Begin spanking softly, then getting harder. Alternate cheeks, and move around. Pay special attention to the spot where her legs meet her ass - that's especially sensitive. Mix up intensity of swats as well as location. A hard swat, then two lighter ones, then two hard ones in a row, etc. Keep going for several minutes between breaks. Take breaks as you like. Do things like pulling on her nipples, or caressing her bottom. Make sure to slide a finger in her pussy - that's a powerful statement to her that you are in control of all of her. Comment how wet she is. Then start spanking her again. Spank her hard enough so she's squirming. Possibly kicking. Keep going at that intensity for maybe twenty seconds. Then ease up. Reintensify. Etc. After maybe five minutes, ask her how she's doing. I suspect that she'll be able to take more than you anticipated. If she's ready for more, give it to her. When you decide that she (or you) have had enough, it's over. Tell her that she's just got a few left (specify how many), and give them to her hard. Slow down - each one should have a few seconds after, to let her absorb them. Then let her up. After, cuddle her and hold her. Tell her you love her. Tell her you loved spanking her and she can expect more. Tell her to suck you, or please you in other ways. After doing this for a few weeks, you'll get to the point where you can recognize when she needs another spanking. She'll get edgy and irritable, and possibly treat you with a bit of disrespect. Just tell her to get the brush....

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 5:51:53 AM)
slight hijack Am I the only one who wants to go touch her self after reading Stevens reply?

sirssubk2008 -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 8:09:20 AM)
quote: Am I the only one who wants to go touch her self after reading Stevens reply? Nope! I had to stop reading part way through then come back. [;)]

Awareness -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 2:02:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub slight hijack Am I the only one who wants to go touch her self after reading Stevens reply? Now you understand the intent behind that reply.

Awareness -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 2:13:50 PM)
I'd say the problem here is that you're just not dominant. Your reference to "giving her what she wants" pretty much gives that away. There are a couple of possibilities - the first is that your natural dominance has been stunted by social and familial issues leading its suppression. If so, a program of intense depussification can see you disconnect from the your socially programmed emasculation and embrace your birthright. Alternatively, you just might be genetically wired for submission. By that I mean your testosterone count is low and the physical features which normally distinguish men from women are muted or absent in your case. Unless you're rocking a severe case of androgyny, the first is far more likely than the second. The problem here, is that either way, the relationship is fucked. If your problem is androgyny, then an outside dominant influence is always going to take precedence over your relationship, you both lack the will to prevent it. If the first, then you need a lot of time to be alone, reflect and pursue your manhood. This requires time alone and a fair amount of skirt-chasing. It's the only way to kill the nice guy and emerge as a man.

curiousNkinky -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 2:57:39 PM)
wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable? Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 3:12:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable? Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool. There ya go! You can defend yourself when you need to, and you have the good judgment to be able to accept Steven's advice and reject Awareness' input. You'll do fine. Many female subs aren't interested in the super macho alpha dom types. Most of them are interested in the spanking. BTW: Welcome to CM.

HisPet21 -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 3:28:50 PM)
I am immediately having my SO read DarkStevens post...it's pretty awesome.

Awareness -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 6:20:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable? Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool. See, that's the problem right there. You're reacting against the notion of a dominating alpha because you feel inferior to such men. Your reaction speaks volumes. Essentially you lack the balls to behave in a way which puts your own interests ahead of your woman's. Yes. Emasculated. Dark Steven's idea won't fly because you don't have the character to behave in a dominant fashion. You're just playacting and hoping like hell it'll work. News flash for you - it won't. Only when you put foolish egalitarian notions behind you will you be able to dominate. No relationship is a democracy.

Awareness -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 6:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt You'll do fine. Many female subs aren't interested in the super macho alpha dom types. Now that's clueless for you, right there.

DarkSteven -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 6:57:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable? Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool. See, that's the problem right there. You're reacting against the notion of a dominating alpha because you feel inferior to such men. Your reaction speaks volumes. Essentially you lack the balls to behave in a way which puts your own interests ahead of your woman's. Yes. Emasculated. Dark Steven's idea won't fly because you don't have the character to behave in a dominant fashion. You're just playacting and hoping like hell it'll work. News flash for you - it won't. Only when you put foolish egalitarian notions behind you will you be able to dominate. No relationship is a democracy. Y'know, it never hurts to let someone proceed before you announce that he failed. What say we kinda give him some ideas, and let him try them? That's sorta the way we all began.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 7:04:50 PM)
so yeah... i think Steven might be onto something... um... yeah... anyway, i have to add that LadyPact has a good point -- sometimes, even if you're doing all the right "moves," if the emotional/vibey part isn't right, it makes the sense less convincing and, thus, less fulfilling. she might feel like your heart isn't in it, or something like that. or that she's making you do something you don't really want to do, which can be disheartening. if you ask "is this what you like?" or something like that fairly often, that can be a turn off. =p but i agree with ChatteParfait -- not every girl is looking for an uber-"macho," knuckle-dragging sort -- women date all kinds of different guys. so hopefully you'll find something that works for you and your girlfriend. adding an additional dominant partner (or different ones for the both of you) might help you both get these needs satisfied and take at least THAT part of the stress out of your relationship. of course, poly arrangements come with their own kinds of stress, so it isn't something to do half-heartedly. feel free to ignore Awarenss, be true to yourself, and hopefully you'll find a path that works for you both.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 7:15:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt You'll do fine. Many female subs aren't interested in the super macho alpha dom types. Now that's clueless for you, right there. Go bait someone else, sweetie.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 10:34:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: curiousNkinky wow, really? couldn't be because I love my lady and in vanilla non-sociopathic human interaction, controlling another human being is considered less than desirable? Or that I'm just a nice guy that doesn't buy into the pretentious alpha-macho-compensation package that all men are offered by society? Listen, I'm completely capable of being both a controlling and dominating man and a nice guy, I just find the former alien to me as I never had any use for it. Catch more flies with honey, you know? Darksteven had a good idea and I'll be trying it tonight with her. I'm not emasculated, Im compassionate maybe overly so and I have a hard time believing that anyone has a "birthright" to be a chauvinistic tool. Once I redefined myself as empathetic instead of nice, my bedroom skills improved significantly. Nice means preventing yourself from hurting her wrong. Empathetic means you go for it, and when it is wrong, you feel it with her and make it burn inside your brain so you don't do it again. It requires far more responsibility than being nice, because eventually you make mistakes and you have to own them. My suggestion: throw nice away. it is a mechanism to protect you, not her.

Awareness -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 11:13:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt You'll do fine. Many female subs aren't interested in the super macho alpha dom types. Now that's clueless for you, right there. Go bait someone else, sweetie. You mean you've turned your back on doing such yourself? Thank fuck, I was beginning to think you'd never grow up.

DeviantlyD -> RE: Conundrum of Sub/Sub Relationship (6/19/2011 11:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt You'll do fine. Many female subs aren't interested in the super macho alpha dom types. Now that's clueless for you, right there. Go bait someone else, sweetie. You mean you've turned your back on doing such yourself? Thank fuck, I was beginning to think you'd never grow up. Here is a joke for you. :) http://www.collarchat.com/m_3731751/tm.htm

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