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Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 2:22:44 AM   
Aneirin


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Petroleum, in one form or another, has been used since ancient times, and is now important across society, including in economy, politics and technology. The rise in importance was mostly due to the invention of the internal combustion engine, the rise in commercial aviation and the increasing use of plastic.

Although various forms of internal combustion engines were developed before the 19th century, application was hindered until the commercial drilling and production of petroleum began in the mid-1850s. By the late 19th century, engineering advances led to widespread adoption in a variety of applications.

So what, our dependence on oil has been with us some hundred odd years and many advances have come been derived from those first commercial uses in the western world, but as we all know as oil and it's distillates have become more available, more and more people want the stuff, and in greater and greater quantities to drive what ?

What is our addiction for oil driving, what will be the ultimatum of this addiction, is there an ultimation ?

But aside from the small scale use of naturally occuring surface oil or in the case of the Chinese, the first drilled oil well circa 347 CE, oil in the form of petroleum was a small scale affair, it's use and development attributed to what is now known as the Arabs, the Mongols and the Chinese, life went on, history plodded along, but come the western world in the nineteenth century, this small scale use has exploded into what we have today, and with that, the acceleration of human tool development.

My overiding question is, are we better off now with oil, or as before, without ?

And in addition to that, can we with our memories of oil go back to a simpler existence without petroleum products at our daily beck and call.




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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone
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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 2:40:59 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Petroleum, in one form or another, has been used since ancient times, and is now important across society, including in economy, politics and technology. The rise in importance was mostly due to the invention of the internal combustion engine, the rise in commercial aviation and the increasing use of plastic.

Although various forms of internal combustion engines were developed before the 19th century, application was hindered until the commercial drilling and production of petroleum began in the mid-1850s. By the late 19th century, engineering advances led to widespread adoption in a variety of applications.

So what, our dependence on oil has been with us some hundred odd years and many advances have come been derived from those first commercial uses in the western world, but as we all know as oil and it's distillates have become more available, more and more people want the stuff, and in greater and greater quantities to drive what ?

What is our addiction for oil driving, what will be the ultimatum of this addiction, is there an ultimation ?

But aside from the small scale use of naturally occuring surface oil or in the case of the Chinese, the first drilled oil well circa 347 CE, oil in the form of petroleum was a small scale affair, it's use and development attributed to what is now known as the Arabs, the Mongols and the Chinese, life went on, history plodded along, but come the western world in the nineteenth century, this small scale use has exploded into what we have today, and with that, the acceleration of human tool development.

My overiding question is, are we better off now with oil, or as before, without ?

And in addition to that, can we with our memories of oil go back to a simpler existence without petroleum products at our daily beck and call.





We'd be better off without it, but only if we find a replacement for it.

If you stopped using oil right now, you'd have death on the scale you could not even imagine. The farms are dependent upon it, transportation is dependent upon it, cheap consumer goods are dependent upon it. This entire world is dependent upon it.

That's bad, as we are a world at present with essentially a single point of failure, which could result in death tolls in the billions. A large fraction of the world population is already on the brink of starvation, remove the oil, which facilitates industrial farming, and food prices would skyrocket.

Anyway, calls to yesteryear are romantic, but there are over 6 billion of us now. The world has not gotten any bigger since it was a billion people. The only difference is machines, fertilizers, some genetic engineering, pesticides, and transportation enhancements, now looking at that list, it is clear that almost all of this "progress" is derived from oil, or other fossil fuel. And simply switching to 100% natural gas, is no real solution either.

So, you want a better world, not hinged around a single point of failure, or a couple points, you have to, start creating energy in a non-destructive way, and the only method that has any prayer,IMO, in the next 20 years, is advances in solar, greater utilization of wind, and dramatic advances in energy storage mechanisms. Until then the world will rest on the edge of a knife that will determine the fate of billions of lives.

So, no I don't want to magically poof oil away, it is the only thing keeping a huge number of the population alive, however, I do want to work away from oil, natural gas, nuclear, coal, as those are suicide paths on a 100+ year time line, which now that I'm almost 35, does not seem like such a big number anymore, my grandma is almost a 100 years old, that is like one life time.


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 3:21:20 AM   
Aneirin


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I agree, but the only way I can see to get off our addiction, is like one cures addiction, lessen the amount used every time and bear the discomfort, and that is what I believe is being done, as indicated by the rise in prices of oil and everything that depends on it. With no viable alternative, that is the only way forward, and perhaps in time if we understand, we are being weaned off, a time will come where oil has less importance in our lives.

But what of all the commodities we use oil to make, alternative materials exist, they have done for centuries, so should oil be wasted on products that can be made from what is basically mud and then there is the pure out and out waste of oil that is disposable plastics that cause a problem for the enviroment and undoubtedly our future, the mounds of waste plastics that the planet cannot reabsorb.

As to the population explosion, that can be tempered and that by the age old availability of the requirements to live, not enough food or water, hell, no point creating a large family to watch them die because there is not enough to go around. The natural order as it has always been before we tried to pervert it's course with aid and nature defying chemicals.


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 5:43:52 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Better off with it.

We have no "addiction".  Might as well say that our civilization is "addicted" to rare earth elements, iron, gold or any other natural resource.

There is plenty of oil, of likely hundreds or thousands of years worth even at our current levels of usage.

While I agree that it would ultimately be helpful to our civilization long-term to find other sources of energy, I see nothing wrong with using petro in the meantime.

Firm


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 6:30:33 AM   
Owner59


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It will be.

But the tards saying/preying now, that it won`t, will not be around when it does.

I`m also pretty sure that the tards will be able to put the kibosh on any real effort at alt. energy sources.

By the time the planet burns up,the present set of tard will be long dead and their tard decedents will have to deal with the mess.


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 6:58:48 AM   
Musicmystery


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We use oil because it's the cheapest way.

When it no longer is, we'll use something else.

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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 9:07:52 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It will be.

But the tards saying/preying now, that it won`t, will not be around when it does.

I`m also pretty sure that the tards will be able to put the kibosh on any real effort at alt. energy sources.

By the time the planet burns up,the present set of tard will be long dead and their tard decedents will have to deal with the mess.

So, Owner .... what's a "tard"?

Firm


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 12:23:47 PM   
Owner59


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I think you can figure that one out,all on your own.

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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 3:29:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I think you can figure that one out,all on your own.

Don't know if I can.  "Libtard" comes to mind, but knowing your political bent, I suspect that is the incorrect attribution.

Firm


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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 4:24:06 PM   
Aneirin


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Together we stand, divided we fall,and judging by some on these forums divided is now and who or what does that aid, none other than those that do things we would not like them to do, but we don't notice because we are so absorbed with our political differences.

Every time I hear a person start a political attack, the word sheep rings in my head, for those that can only answer a question with  partisan leanings indicate to me they have been well educated in the incohesiveness of society.

Do these mongers not know they are being lead astray.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 4:56:34 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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No they do not, and it is indoctrination, not education ;)

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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 5:09:54 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

We use oil because it's the cheapest way.

When it no longer is, we'll use something else.


Exactly!
When it becomes too painful ($ costwise), then another cheaper way will be found..

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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 5:43:47 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

My overiding question is, are we better off now with oil, or as before, without ?
And in addition to that, can we with our memories of oil go back to a simpler existence without petroleum products at our daily beck and call.


First, there's NO 'as before'.
Second, I think the oil reserves exist for this nonsense to go on for at least a few centuries. The question is really can we muster enough of a sense of responsibility for the environment and to a lesser extent social justice, and find a technological path forward. Because if you think they could plunge billions of people into the 1800s without a big kill-off, you're simply not being realistic.
  What I see this more as is a point in history where Darwin kicks in (in a small way) and we feel compelled to grow out of it. The idea just didn't flip on in everybody's head at end of the sixties. But at least in this country, we have an overwhelming number of people who have grown at least to the point of realization that it's got to happen (weening off petroleum) and the next phase is beginning, which is the 'how'.
Be patient, this'll take a while.




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RE: Is Oil our ultimate undoing ? - 7/3/2011 7:04:08 PM   
Rule


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Oil is a free gift from the Earth. It is not so much oil that is the problem. It is far easier to build dikes using heavy machinery than physical labor. The problem is that it is so very cheap that everybody can afford it. I propose that all tax is put on oil. That way only the wealthy can afford oil and that way only the wealthy pay taxes.

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