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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:01:56 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Here is what I think about this post.


Have fun in the Outer Limits, bye bye!


LOL. What exactly is so crazy, there are a couple school districts experimenting with this. The beginning of the concept is http://www.khanacademy.org/. Bill Gates seems to like it. Of course it's not developed fully, but the future is coming, it's a superior method.

Anyway, go educate yourself. You can start at www.khanacademy.org



That may be the wave of the distant future, I hope and pray I am not only retired but gone to glory when/if the public schools are taken over by robots.

I will not click the links, I am not interested, thank you.

If you want to start a thread on that topic, feel free!

This topic is about budget cuts, and how it will be effecting thousands of school districts.



Where are you getting robots from? Do you make up things all the time.

It is related in the sense, that the method would require less school time for the same education, thus cost less. Thus budget cuts would make less of an impact on the education of kids.

Anyway, I won't comment anymore, I didn't see the sign. "CHOIR in session".













(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:15:52 PM   
kat321


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Joined: 2/4/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou



LOL. What exactly is so crazy, there are a couple school districts experimenting with this. The beginning of the concept is http://www.khanacademy.org/. Bill Gates seems to like it. Of course it's not developed fully, but the future is coming, it's a superior method.

Anyway, go educate yourself. You can start at www.khanacademy.org




The Kahn Academy is a wonderful idea.... as a tutoring agent for students not keeping up in class or for adults who need to gain certain skills for job retention or promotion.  Gates has not advocated the program replace all schooling, nor has any district supplanted their curriculum for complete online coursework- his or anyone's.  The districts that do have online programs largely allow them for students who do not succeed in traditional classrooms or as charters, and the programs are overseen by teachers who the students communicate with regularly.  In fact, the 'best' online programs (those in which students had the highest achievement levels) were courses in which immediate feedback was provided by instructors attached to the programs. Videos alone don't work as an online teaching method, and produce the poorest results of all online teaching programs.  By the way, current research in online K-12 learning indicates that the programs, at best, produces results equivalent to the classroom.... not superior to.

Gates is throwing money at almost everything in secondary education (largely leaving K-8 out in the cold).  Just because he throws money at it does not mean it is working. In fact, the research done by his own people has been rather mixed on how productive his funded initiatives have been.  I give him credit for trying, but the public needs to realize that just because Gates funds it doesn't mean it works or ever will.


(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:30:00 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

LOL. What exactly is so crazy, there are a couple school districts experimenting with this. The beginning of the concept is http://www.khanacademy.org/. Bill Gates seems to like it. Of course it's not developed fully, but the future is coming, it's a superior method.

Anyway, go educate yourself. You can start at www.khanacademy.org




The Kahn Academy is a wonderful idea.... as a tutoring agent for students not keeping up in class or for adults who need to gain certain skills for job retention or promotion.  Gates has not advocated the program replace all schooling, nor has any district supplanted their curriculum for complete online coursework- his or anyone's.  The districts that do have online programs largely allow them for students who do not succeed in traditional classrooms or as charters, and the programs are overseen by teachers who the students communicate with regularly.  In fact, the 'best' online programs (those in which students had the highest achievement levels) were courses in which immediate feedback was provided by instructors attached to the programs. Videos alone don't work as an online teaching method, and produce the poorest results of all online teaching programs.  By the way, current research in online K-12 learning indicates that the programs, at best, produces results equivalent to the classroom.... not superior to.

Gates is throwing money at almost everything in secondary education (largely leaving K-8 out in the cold).  Just because he throws money at it does not mean it is working. In fact, the research done by his own people has been rather mixed on how productive his funded initiatives have been.  I give him credit for trying, but the public needs to realize that just because Gates funds it doesn't mean it works or ever will.



Thanks Kat, which YOU said makes a lot of sense.

Many if not most school systems are finding that using technology, online tutoring, programs, computer-assisted instruction, etc. can serve MANY functions inside and outside the classroom, and can be critical to enhancing the learning environment.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kat321)
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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:33:29 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		They should do what Wisconsin did. Have teachers conribute a portion of their health care and pension like everyone in the private sector and the jobs will stay.

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:42:10 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

They should do what Wisconsin did. Have teachers conribute a portion of their health care and pension like everyone in the private sector and the jobs will stay.



THIS howdy doody thread is not about money or teacher's salaries, this howdy doody thread is about the tremendous cuts that are on the horizon for many students, especially those in area's that have a large number of poor and disadvantaged students.

3 pages and no one has commented about the IMPACT on the families and communities when many of these students are in school 4 days instead of 5!!!!

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:48:51 PM   
kat321


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ORIGINAL: servantforuse

They should do what Wisconsin did. Have teachers conribute a portion of their health care and pension like everyone in the private sector and the jobs will stay.


Some info on WI:  The WI teachers union conceded to paying into both retirement and pensions before the budget was introduced.  The argument has always been over collective bargaining rights.

And no, the jobs have not stayed.  On top of the union concessions, the state cut over 800 million from education.  Milwaukee alone has lost 350 teachers and (at last reporting, it could change) cut all world language courses for middle school students unless the program is part of a specially designated program (magnet, etc.)  Most districts with retirees this year have not rehired in those positions, which means fewer teachers per school and larger class sizes.  Classroom aides, after-school programs, and support services (counselors, librarians, etc.) are gone in many districts. The budget also made it impossible for locales that want to raise taxes to keep there schools intact cannot do so. In effect, these cuts have contributed to increased unemployment in the state... And as of yet, no new jobs have come in.

In the end, I give WI five or so years where the state will get a few businesses to come in because of the tax breaks that the Governor will offer by taking 800 million away from education.  After that, as achievement markers fall, other businesses will leave and fewer will come in.  If a state cannot guarantee an educated work-force, businesses tend to flee.

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:54:22 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Milwaukee will lay off 200 teachers, not 350. The reason why. They signed their contract before the new bill went into effect. The union decided it was better to lay off 200 than contribute to their health care like the other dictricts in the state. So much for brothers and sisters in the union.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 7:57:50 PM   
kat321


Posts: 66
Joined: 2/4/2011
Status: offline 		Marini, since the kids are in the same number of hours, it won't change achievement levels, with the possibility of younger students who simply will not be able to focus academically for 7-8 hours.

The impact on families will be greater as many will have to find day-care services for the fifth day of the week; and as many of us know, GOOD day care is both difficult to find and expensive.  Since the schools are financially  strapped, they won't be able to offer the service,  and private providers will be swamped. We will end up with another slew of under-educated and under-trained day care providers getting paid minimum wage to simply warehouse kids.  (Apologies to anyone here who works at a high-quality program, I know there are good arrangements out there somewhere, but I have not been impressed when evaluating the majority of programs.)

With older kids, more will be hanging out, as while this is happening there are few entry level positions available to them. 

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:00:43 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kat321

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou



LOL. What exactly is so crazy, there are a couple school districts experimenting with this. The beginning of the concept is http://www.khanacademy.org/. Bill Gates seems to like it. Of course it's not developed fully, but the future is coming, it's a superior method.

Anyway, go educate yourself. You can start at www.khanacademy.org




The Kahn Academy is a wonderful idea.... as a tutoring agent for students not keeping up in class or for adults who need to gain certain skills for job retention or promotion.  Gates has not advocated the program replace all schooling, nor has any district supplanted their curriculum for complete online coursework- his or anyone's.  The districts that do have online programs largely allow them for students who do not succeed in traditional classrooms or as charters, and the programs are overseen by teachers who the students communicate with regularly.  In fact, the 'best' online programs (those in which students had the highest achievement levels) were courses in which immediate feedback was provided by instructors attached to the programs. Videos alone don't work as an online teaching method, and produce the poorest results of all online teaching programs.  By the way, current research in online K-12 learning indicates that the programs, at best, produces results equivalent to the classroom.... not superior to.

Gates is throwing money at almost everything in secondary education (largely leaving K-8 out in the cold).  Just because he throws money at it does not mean it is working. In fact, the research done by his own people has been rather mixed on how productive his funded initiatives have been.  I give him credit for trying, but the public needs to realize that just because Gates funds it doesn't mean it works or ever will.




I never said replace all teachers, or schools entirely. I think people are reading what they want to read. Well, I did add the down with the SCHOOLS chant, but that was obviously a joke. At least it should have obviously been a joke. I'm not for more of the same though, and in that sense, I don't want more "schools" humping the old models.

The idea is kids can watch and or read at home, then go to school for questions, answers, additional explanation. Instead of teachers spending time, repeating very basic information in the 50 minutes alotted to them. So, instead of a teacher explaining plate tectonics in class, he'd simply say learn plate tectonics on the website (watch videos explaining it, by various teachers, and read the book section), then when they show up in class the next day they simply ask questions they are confused about, rather than going over the whole thing in class, which is a waste of time for a teacher and most students, IMO.

So, instead of the teacher spending 40 minutes going over stuff that is already in a video, or book, and spending 10 minutes answering questions, now they could spend 50 minutes. Thus it's better in my opinion. And yes, some could learn exclusively from the videos/book, but I never said there would be no school or real teachers.

It would be cheaper, IMO, because each teacher could now spend more time per student helping them get over "humps". So, instead of hiring more teachers to increase the one on one teacher to student time, it would increase without additional cost because the teachers would not be spending time simply repeating the book or video.

And for some kids the videos would be enough to get most concepts. Why make them sit through a class if they are already proficient? So, they can study something else or have less school days possibly.

Anyway, My point is more money, is not always the answer, nor is simply forcing kids to sit in a desk the answer, using the same tired teacher at a blackboard model simply repeating for the most part what is in the book, which was my experience of "school" for a very large part.



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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:00:56 PM   
kat321


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Milwaukee will lay off 200 teachers, not 350. The reason why. They signed their contract before the new bill went into effect. The union decided it was better to lay off 200 than contribute to their health care like the other dictricts in the state. So much for brothers and sisters in the union.


Yes- they did sign their contract before the budget was announced.... Their three-year contract was signed the previous school year (2009-2010).... before Walker took office.

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:03:00 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou


On top of it, isn't it about time for education to evolve anyway, really there is no reason to shuffle all the kids to school everyday anymore. The internet, can easily replace at least a couple days a week, especially for course like US history, World History, Spanish, Sociology, as in classes that are mostly just rote memory. I'd just assign prerecorded classes to watch, then the kids come in three days a week and get tested, ask any questions they might have, and send them on their merry way. For courses like math, biology, physics, etc... Well a teacher is more useful, IMO, but still some of that could be done from videos explaining basic concepts, then coming in for question answer time.



You're forgetting one thing. This isn't the 1930's where one income supported a family. Parents have to work, something they usually do when their kids are at school.

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 7/7/2011 8:05:04 PM >

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:05:56 PM   
Marini


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ORIGINAL: kat321

Marini, since the kids are in the same number of hours, it won't change achievement levels, with the possibility of younger students who simply will not be able to focus academically for 7-8 hours.

The impact on families will be greater as many will have to find day-care services for the fifth day of the week; and as many of us know, GOOD day care is both difficult to find and expensive. Since the schools are financially strapped, they won't be able to offer the service, and private providers will be swamped. We will end up with another slew of under-educated and under-trained day care providers getting paid minimum wage to simply warehouse kids. (Apologies to anyone here who works at a high-quality program, I know there are good arrangements out there somewhere, but I have not been impressed when evaluating the majority of programs.)

With older kids, more will be hanging out, as while this is happening there are few entry level positions available to them.


BINGO! This is going to impact the families in a very, very, big way.
Many lives are going to be changed and turned around.

If anything schools need to be offering more programs and services, not less!
Especially with many districts eliminating all day Pre-Kindergarten and the cuts being made
to some of the Early Childhood programs, these cuts will be detrimental, to many students and their families, to say the least!

Have you seen where many school districts have been able to DECREASE the number of days in the school calendar year?
What's next?
4 day a week school days and a 7 month school year?

< Message edited by Marini -- 7/7/2011 8:08:05 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kat321)
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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:06:03 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Kat, The union could reopen that contract to save those 200 jobs, but refused to do so. Afterall, It's all about the children. They threw 200 union member teachers with less senority under the bus.

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:12:00 PM   
kat321


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou





Your model of teaching (assign the chapter, lecture the chapter the next day, assign the next chapter) is certainly not how teachers are educated to teach, nor is it the teaching model that is supported by the newer models of teacher evaluation used in schools (or that will be adopted shortly).  While I agree that model exists, it is not what is supposed to occur.... and principals generally have five years to weed out those who demonstrate this limited teaching range- if they are doing their jobs... but that, like this off-shoot topic is another thread.

Your implied model really doesn't do much more than the textbook model you dislike.... it just substitutes a video for a text. One could still ask the same questions students do about the text, "Why read [watch] it if the teacher will just lecture it tomorrow?'  Granted, watching is easier than reading for some students, but there is a cognitive process involved in reading that yields needed skills as well.  Again, another topic.

My apologies, Marini!

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:22:54 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Many school districts have decided to cut the school week from 5 days to 4 days, to save money!
Evidently, these school districts feel they can "cram" a normal 5 day school week into 4 days.

Well, I remember being a kid and going to school and quite frankly, I thought education should have been done in half the time. It was soooo stretched out, after the summer you spend the fall relearning what you learned the previous year and apparently forgot over the summer.... And its not like i was a genius or anything but i did find things really could have moved along a lot faster & we could have learned a whole lot more. Just imagine kids coming out of high school with a college grade knowledge already... Imagine how that would help the economy too..

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:28:29 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

3 pages and no one has commented about the IMPACT on the families and communities when many of these students are in school 4 days instead of 5!!!!


I mad a countersuggestion which would have cut the budget and retained the five day school week.  So I don't HAVE to address the impact! 


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:33:52 PM   
kat321


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Kat, The union could reopen that contract to save those 200 jobs, but refused to do so. Afterall, It's all about the children. They threw 200 union member teachers with less senority under the bus.


The opening the contract argument is irrelevant (or you might have mentioned the 90 million dollar savings the older contract gave the district).  Throughout the state, teachers with seniority are leaving because they don't know what will happen to their pensions.  This should have opened up positions. It didn't (and it didn't matter if contracts were figures in previous years or not.)  The funding cuts were so great- and not offset by the pension/retirement contributions as promised- that full programs have been cut.  Almost every district is seeing this. 

By the way, my numbers as reported by the state and MTEA as of June 29 were roughly 350 teachers and 175 other employees.  Granted they change as the state budget is finalized, but your numbers seem off.  Where did you get them?

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RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 8:34:03 PM   
Marini


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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What the HELL?

Schools exist to provide an education.  To make effective cuts the idea should be to make cuts that reduce the delivered product (education) LESS than the amount of the cuts.

Schools' expenses go for teachers, for administration, for payment on the buildings.  The article NOWHERE mentioned cuts in the administration.  The obvious choice would be to reduce administrators to a four day week and make then rotate which days they take off, so that each day they are 80% staffed.  And then the teachers would teach five days a week as before.

The cuts as implemented will reduce expenditures by maybe 10% and the amount of education provided by 20%.

(Note - I wanted to reread the cited article to verify that the school days were not lengthened but was not permitted to open the link a second time.)



Interesting idea, but then you dare suggest that schools could run with Adminstration working only a 4 day work week?
Hummmmm

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Budget Cuts/ Thousands of School districts going to... - 7/7/2011 11:04:41 PM   
KeriB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Interesting idea, but then you dare suggest that schools could run with Adminstration working only a 4 day work week?
Hummmmm



Generally when the schools go to a four day work week, the administration does also. This is so that they can save money by having all of the buildings closed for the day and not just some.

The four day model does work very well in many school districts in rural areas. It is not as bad as many people think it is.

_____________________________

I fear neither death nor pain. A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire. ~ Eowyn

I've seen honest faces, they usually come attached to liars.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 59
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