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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 11:56:30 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I didnt say anything about strawmanning dearie, I was focussing on the first part you said "must first learn how to read what someone actually writes, not just make crap up in your mind about what you think they said"

try reading yourself ....just today youve done it twice

What I am defining is "straw-manning".  Making an argument not against what someone's position is, but against an assumed position that you attribute to them.

That's what tweak did, and I called her on it.

Please show me where I have done the same.

Firm


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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:09:27 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		"Beck caused an outcry on Monday after his comments hit the Web. On Tuesday, he did not mention the stir directly, but instead discussed a book about the early days of Nazi Germany that he is reading.

He said he saw parallels between Hitler's statements to the Germans and President Obama's statements to the American public. Anybody who expressed concern with what Hitler was doing was "ridiculed or marginalized or rounded up and killed," he added.

Beck's co-host jumped in to stress that this did not mean that there were "gas chambers in Kansas." An agitated Beck cut him off.

"Don't start," he said, his voice rising. "Don't even. Don't!" He got more and more heated as he continued.

"If we're living in a society where we can't say X in the same paragraph as Y and not be told we are comparing it...we are going to be a society of gas chambers," he yelled. If you can't have a logical conversation...the question is, does this country bypass the mainstream media faster than it's destroyed. I'm betting yes. It's called GBTV."


More and more hitler talk this time about the president.


There`s a parallel I`m seeing amongst whiny-cons.....They regard the flack they get(and deservedly so)as if it`s censorship or talking away the 1st amendment rights.

When on the contrary,we are just using OUR 1st amendment rights to call a dick a dick.

Words to words.

One has the right to abuse the 1st amendment.

No one is exempt from or above feeling the consequences of that abuse.


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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 12:34:03 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		So this bullshit about Hitler youth isn't in any way analogous to Breivik's argument that the camp was a training ground for little liberals who needed to die, then?

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:00:56 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tweak, If I were inclined to want to be another "Hitler", "Musolini", or some other despotic murderer and control people I sure as hell wouldn't want "conservatives" anywhere near me!


I'd want people like this who spoke my "lingo", people easily influenced by a leader and easily lead!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhHmhEqX7G4

Really pops been missing our meds again have we? Your posts (#154 and 155) is as deranged as Beck rant. Your hysterical attempts to twist what I wrote are making you sound sillier than usual. Your tone is so defensive that I'm sure many people are thinking: He doth protest too much.

Why can't you just dissociate yourself from Beck's obscene remarks and leave it at that? I would imagine most people would have taken your word for it - I would have.

Instead you offer us a ridiculous tirade attributing things to me that I very clearly never wrote or hinted at, even obliquely. I stated that the Nazis and fascists are only found on the rightwing/conservative side of politics. Fascism and Nazis are an exclusively right wing phenomenon. It's a simple uncontroversial fact, completely supported by the historical record. There's nothing you I or any one else can do about it. The Left has its own series of monsters - Stalin, Pol Pot etc - none of whom can be accurately described as Nazis or fascists, even if many of their atrocities were every bit as bad.

The Hitlers and Mussolinis are no more representative of the broad Right than the Stalins and Pol Pots are of the broad Left. Why does this type of statement cause you so much difficulty? Again I ask: Why do you feel a need to continually attack and distort the message of any one who's horrified by Beck's demented slanders? Why are you trying to turn this into a Left vs Right issue? It's a simple matter of basic decency and humanity. Why do you feel unable to criticise Beck for his shocking statements without reacting in such a hostile defensive manner? What is at stake here for you?

No one is accusing you of anything yet you sound as though you feel you are being held personally accountable for every action by every right wing nut case ever.




Ok then, we'll just pencil you in for wanting to be under the control of Joseph Stalin.

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:06:47 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
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Status: offline 		To whom it may concern:

I always find these “Hitler was one of you” shit slinging fests amusing.

First, whether anybody likes it or not, whether they want to believe it or not, fascism emerged out of left wing movements, not right wing. No amount of pouting or name calling will change that fact. The right wing were the monarchists and capitalists who wanted to cling to the nineteenth century world, they had no interest in remaking the world. The original fascists were socialist who did not like the international “flavor” of the socialist movement. They considered themselves nationalists (hence the term national socialist). The term was NOT a trick. Take a look at the National Socialists German Worker’s Party twenty-five points. Amongst them you will find demands for the division of profits from all heavy industries, expansion of the old age pension system, abolition of unearned income, and the outlawing of child labor. These blatantly socialistic ideas were melded with nationalist demands such as citizenship being restricted to Germans only, the expulsion of all foreigners, and the substitution of German common Law for Roman Law.

I think where people make their biggest mistake in trying to peg the nazis as being either left or right is in presuming that Hitler and the nazi party were one and the same. People argue that the nazi party was right or left because they then can peg Hitler (near universally agreed to be the most evil man ever to walk the earth) as right or left. In short, it is guilt by association. Hitler, however, was not right or left. To believe this is to misunderstand who Hitler was, how he saw himself, and what his goals were. Hitler believed that he was born a man of destiny, a “world historical figure” destined to radically alter the political and social landscape (hardly a conservative notion) and to implement a new world order based upon a racial hierarchy (hardly a liberal notion).

Hitler’s belief was in power and a total subordination of means to that end. In his mind anything and everything was a tool to be used when needed and then discarded when no longer needed. This included the nazi party itself. It was not the nazi party paying lip service to left wing ideas, it was Hitler. The socialist elements within the nazi party were problematic at times for Hitler but he tolerated them because he needed the votes of the working class which he knew to be sympathetic to socialistic ideas (he also needed the money of the conservative upper class so he paid lip service to their ideas as well). There were several points at which it looked like the party would split in two, particularly after Hitler came to power and there was grumbling that he wasn’t implementing the socialist aspects of the party platform fast enough. This was one of the reasons behind the Night of the Long Knives.

Because the nazis were blatant racists it was only natural that the left wing would soon start calling those conservatives who wanted to hold onto America’s racial hierarchy nazis, something they have been doing since the 1960’s at least. The Republican party aided and abetted this by making the disastrous decision to woo these racists for their votes, thus linking conservatism with nazism in the minds of many. It is probably because of this that people today falsely believe that fascism and Nazism were right wing in origin and as a result nazism and fascism have become redefined as rightwing. This is also likely why Communism (an authoritarian system virtually indistinguishable from fascism) as being on the liberal side of the political divide.

It was only in recent years that I’ve noticed the right starting to throw the terms nazi and fascist back at the left (at least on any kind of a large scale basis) and I have to say that the left’s reaction has been rather amusing (Hey! It’s not nice to call somebody a nazi!).

The time has come for both the left and the right to dump the nazis and Hitler into the garbage dump of history where they belong and stop using this obvious guilt by association tactic in place of actual debate. The left needs to admit that just because somebody thinks we need to lower taxes it does not make them a nazi and the right needs to admit that just because somebody thinks we need to raise taxes that doesn’t make them a nazi either. I am under no delusions that this will happen any time soon (it is just too much of a fun ego stroke to proclaim your moral and intellectual superiority over others) but hope springs eternal.


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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:11:41 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Excellent post, marc.

Firm


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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:12:48 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		You are aware that the notion of fascism goes at least as far back as the collapse of the Roman Empire, rather than being purely a post Marx coinage?

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:14:07 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Excellent post, marc.


Thanks.

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Profile   Post #: 188
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:17:40 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

You are aware that the notion of fascism goes at least as far back as the collapse of the Roman Empire, rather than being purely a post Marx coinage?


The origins of the word (bundle of sticks and all that) go back to the Roman Empire but what you're talking about it the orgin of authoritarianism which probably goes back to the time when humans first started using tools: "Do what I say or I'll hit you with this rock."

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:20:40 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		It was probably pre-speech in its inception, actually.  All these forms of social (uh-oh, there's that word........) behavior occurred in rudimentary forms simultaneously.

One gained favor over another at that time and that place.

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:20:47 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Well that's a given, but the notion of sinister unity among people who think the same and are convinced that everybody else is scum is late Roman at the very latest. Trying to argue that it was a post Marxist development is a bit disingenuous, given that.

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:33:08 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

It was probably pre-speech in its inception, actually. All these forms of social (uh-oh, there's that word........) behavior occurred in rudimentary forms simultaneously.

One gained favor over another at that time and that place.


Probably... but I thought the "hit you with this rock" line was really clever and, enamored with my own cleverness, I went with it.

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:42:36 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Well that's a given, but the notion of sinister unity among people who think the same and are convinced that everybody else is scum is late Roman at the very latest.

I would think the above would have found greater expression in Spartian society from the 6/7th Century BC.

quote:


Trying to argue that it was a post Marxist development is a bit disingenuous, given that.

I believe a lot of historians date the advent of modern fascism to a progression of ideas from the late nineteenth Century and early Twentieth which fused with intellectual movements at the time like social Darwinism.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 7/27/2011 1:43:29 PM >

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:42:50 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Well that's a given, but the notion of sinister unity among people who think the same and are convinced that everybody else is scum is late Roman at the very latest. Trying to argue that it was a post Marxist development is a bit disingenuous, given that.


I am not arguing that people being dicks toward each other is anything new.

The idea of sinister unity, as Ron noted, probably goes back to the days when we were first starting to walk on two legs. It is an evolutionary holdover. We are a tribal species and the natural instinct of the tribe is to be suspicious (at the very least) of all outsiders. This may have served us well, as a species, in our early days but it is nothing but trouble for us now. Only when we as a species start to look upon the whole human race as a signle tribe will we start to overcome the bigotry that rules us.

If it makes you feel better you can amend my remarks to "the modern fascist movement emerged from left wing movements."

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/27/2011 1:49:14 PM >

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 1:45:42 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Fair enough.

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 2:49:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
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Status: offline 		I think we should not worry about what is right and what is left wing…This verbiage is too general and often means different things in different societies. Not only that but the same political position is often supported by both wings if not often at different times…Such as the Democrat healthcare bill that is almost identical the Republican proposal a few years back but so demonized by the same party today.

It seems to me ridiculous that we are even arguing over so called right wing 70 years ago and the so called American right wing today. They are not the same 10 years ago let alone 70 or certainly a few thousand.

I like conservative, moderate, and liberal as designations much better then right and left wing…they describe a way of thinking without prejudice. Christians should be left out altogether as there are probably as many liberal Christians as conservative ones…and that goes for all religions.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/27/2011 2:52:15 PM >

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 7:45:48 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

That was an unnecessary and low blow, Aswad.


You're right.

My apologies.

quote:

Perhaps you are filtering what I am saying through your own experiences, and not clearly understanding my point of view.


We all filter what we hear through our own experiences. But please allow me to correct myself. What I should have said is that my experience indicates that the degree in question is entirely secondary to the qualities of the person that holds the degree, and that this also applies to a lot of other degrees at comparable levels in other fields.

Incidentally, distress was not a causative factor, but I will not exclude it as a disinhibiting factor in yielding to temptation. If it makes it any better, I will note that the wording was intended humorously, and aimed at the several barns wide opening left by the jeering poster to which I replied, with a failure to consider the ancillary effects on you in that context. The meaning behind it was as I noted in the preceding paragraph.

I've no grounds to dismiss your competence, so I reiterate my apology.

quote:

In this thread I've simply been addressing the American double-standard of the use of Nazi metaphors for political purposes.


I think we can agree that it is a pervasive double standard, extending well beyond the Nazi label, and not confined to any group.

quote:

My goal in this thread was to point that out.


I am quite certain I have additionally misread you, then, as you've come across more as defensive of the use that sparked the thread than as illustrative of the existence of a double standard. This, I believe, is probably a function of the context and atmosphere that the other posters have provided, which you should obviously not be faulted for; it's just my self-analysis.

It could be said to be off topic, but no further than I routinely stray myself.

Hopefully, I have cleared up matters. Else, please let me know.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 7:55:00 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The claim that ""the modern fascist movement emerged from left wing movements." is true only in Italy. However, from the very start, the split was marked by violence and antagonism on both sides and by 1919, 5 years after the initial split, Mussolini was proclaiming "war on socialism". At this time, Italian fascism was a tiny obscure regional movement. Fascism developed into a mass movement in Italy during the period after 1920 by allying itself with anti-worker/Socialist/Union forces.

German fascism – the Nazis – grew out of the German Worker’s Party, which was inspired by the ultra-nationalist Pan-Germanic League. Spanish fascism, the Falangist movement, was founded in 1933 by Primo de Riviera, the son of a former Prime Minister and owes its rise to Franco’s co-option of the movement. Both Nazis and Falangists were fiercely anti-Bolshevik (Communist) and anti-Socialist from their formations.

The fate of fascism is not tied to Hitler or even German fascism (Nazism). Hitler was the pre-eminent fascist, but his death in 1945 did not mark the end of fascist rule in Europe. Fascism, primarily an ultra-nationalist cause, took various forms in the different European countries where it attained power. Fascist Spain remained neutral during World War II, while clearly sympathising with the Axis Powers. Spanish fascism remained in power through Franco until 1975. A notable feature was the 1937 merger of the conservative Carlist party and the Falangists/fascists.

The fascist route to power in Spain Germany and Italy in the 20s and 30s was marked in each case by constant fierce violent struggles with the forces of the left - the unions, workers, socialist and communists. The most well-known of these is the Spanish Civil War 1936-39. Even in countries where fascism failed to attain power, such as the UK, there were violent confrontations. Moseley's Fascists fought running street battles with Leftist and anti-Fascist forces.

When Fascists succeeded in attaining power, the left was always among the very first targets. This is true even in Hitler's Germany, where the destruction of the left was completed long before the 'Final Solution', the systematic genocide of the Jews, was implemented. The Nazi’s Twenty Five points are populist rather than socialist – the Nazi’s had physically obliterated any socialist presence in German politics. Another feature of fascist rule was the alliance between economic elites and fascism. Whilst fascism was theoretically corporatist in nature, it managed to co-exist quite happily with the reigning capitalist regimes when it attained power. Krupps, Siemens anybody?

Fierce violent antagonism - often a fight to the death - between fascism and the Left has been has been a constant feature wherever fascism has reared its ugly head in the West. It is happening today in Western Europe where the recent revival of ultra-right and fascist groups is a source of constant friction.

This history of intense violence and uncompromising opposition between the Left and fascism is constant from within a year or two of fascism's emergence on the political landscape. This violent antagonism is such a constant that it is easily argued that it's an outstanding, defining feature of the relationship between fascism and the Left historically. Any imputed similarity between the two would be vehemently rejected by both.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/27/2011 7:58:24 PM >

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RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 8:02:38 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I think you nailed that one, Aswad.


I didn't actually mean to do so.

As I explained to FirmhandKY, what I was trying to nail was the point that appeal to authority is a rhetorical device, not an argument.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 199
RE: After the shock, here come the crazies.... - 7/27/2011 8:13:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks Aswad.

We are good.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 200
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