RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ?

RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

Message

RapierFugue -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 1:46:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras Indeed but he asked was I a Catholic. Taking an undue interest It wasn't an undue interest. It was merely an enquiry. I'm happy to declare myself agnostic, for example. I see no reason for anyone to feel ashamed of their religion, or indeed lack of, in this day and age. If you don't want to answer a straight question then of course that's fine. Who am I kidding; you find it impossible to answer a straight question :)

Anaxagoras -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 1:54:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras Indeed but he asked was I a Catholic. Taking an undue interest It wasn't an undue interest. It was merely an enquiry. I'm happy to declare myself agnostic, for example. I see no reason for anyone to feel ashamed of their religion, or indeed lack of, in this day and age. If you don't want to answer a straight question then of course that's fine. Who am I kidding; you find it impossible to answer a straight question :) Excuse me I have answered every other question you put. It was in the context of a relatively fractious debate so I felt it was not appropriate asking. In any case you haven't actually stated even here what your background is (presumably protestant). I too am agnostic bordering on the atheistic. I do not believe in God. Happy now? I assume not! [8\|]

RapierFugue -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 2:05:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras I too am agnostic bordering on the atheistic. I do not believe in God. Happy now? I assume not! [8\|] It's not for me to be happy or unhappy about it. I was merely curious. Thank you for answering.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 4:27:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika I am in no position to condemn him for his actions. None. I would hope to think that in his situation, I would refuse to join, that I would resist. I cannot guarantee this or prove this (and anyone who says they would, isn't being very realistic). We don't know what we're made of until we are forced to face it. But when I say it goes to strength of character, it's because they didn't just chose him to for just any leadership position. They chose him to be the representative of their god on earth. That's where it gets tricky. As I see it, it really depends on whether or not the ordination of the Pope is seen as a divine choice as the will of God, in which the issue of his past would be a concern. I believe though that few would judge any mature adult in their own right based on their actions in their early teenage years. When the college of cardinals are convened in conclave to elect the Pope, I would suppose that good catholic cardinals pray to god for guidance and let their decisions be guided by the will of their god, no? I mean history shows us there has been much political corruption in papal selection. That said, corruption aside, ideally, it would be a choice guided by their god. Now of course, to a theist, this is plausible, and they would then say that the conclave made the choice based on their own political and personal interests. But as an atheist, I have to take my point of view out of this equation, as it matters little what powers brought the pope into power for me, as he's not my pope. As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult. quote: quote: Personally, I find that trying to hold him accountable for his actions when he was 14 is unnecessary since he's contributed to a great deal of the world's evil since he's been an adult, has joined the church and increasingly so since he's become Pope. The actions of the church are a complex issue relating to a clash between their traditional morality and reality. I feel that dragging their feet on the need for condoms in Africa is inexcusable however due to the massive loss of life due to AIDS. One of the things I could say in Ratzinger's defence though, is that he was a liberal until the effects of 1968, and he was the first of the senior Catholic hierarchy to make a serious move on the paedophile issue and the first Pope to unambiguously apologise for the actions of the church. The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 5:40:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult. Indeed in some societies thirteen year olds are expected to do so. I think though that most would feel that is inappropriate today, for example the use of child soldiers is considered a crime. Regardless of responsibility though, how I see it is that he was an elderly man in his 70's when he was considered a candidate for Pope. He like everyone else would have done a lot of growing up since 14. People change so much that IMHO they might as well not be the same person by that stage. quote: The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree. That could certainly be argued and I think not enough has been done even by Ratzinger but at least he has done considerably more than others about sex abuse including controversially change church law. Famously he persued Father Marcel for years. Marcel was a highly powerful individual who started the Legion of Christ and had a lot of powerful friends, even the previous pope. Ratzinger brought proceedings against him and his order but Marcel died the following year.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 5:52:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult. Indeed in some societies thirteen year olds are expected to do so. I think though that most would feel that is inappropriate today, for example the use of child soldiers is considered a crime. Regardless of responsibility though, how I see it is that he was an elderly man in his 70's when he was considered a candidate for Pope. He like everyone else would have done a lot of growing up since 14. People change so much that IMHO they might as well not be the same person by that stage. Of course he grew up. And in all honesty, I really believe people can change if they really want to. Hey, there was a time in my life I was a member of this cult called the catholic church, even participated actively, until the age of 13 before I started drawing the curtains to reveal the wizard, and people have forgiven me that ;-) quote: quote: The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree. That could certainly be argued and I think not enough has been done even by Ratzinger but at least he has done considerably more than others about sex abuse including controversially change church law. Famously he persued Father Marcel for years. Marcel was a highly powerful individual who started the Legion of Christ and had a lot of powerful friends, even the previous pope. Ratzinger brought proceedings against him and his order but Marcel died the following year. Still not enough. He could have turned them over to civil courts that would have dealt with it. Again, Ratzinger, who likely didn't change that much, went with the popular movement in power to save his skin. So did he really change?

Anaxagoras -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 6:11:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika As for judging adults for the person they were in their teenage years, well I think that is a personal choice based on our personal criteria and what is expected of us and our society. In some societies, 13 years old is a man who has all the responsibilities of an adult. Indeed in some societies thirteen year olds are expected to do so. I think though that most would feel that is inappropriate today, for example the use of child soldiers is considered a crime. Regardless of responsibility though, how I see it is that he was an elderly man in his 70's when he was considered a candidate for Pope. He like everyone else would have done a lot of growing up since 14. People change so much that IMHO they might as well not be the same person by that stage. Of course he grew up. And in all honesty, I really believe people can change if they really want to. Hey, there was a time in my life I was a member of this cult called the catholic church, even participated actively, until the age of 13 before I started drawing the curtains to reveal the wizard, and people have forgiven me that ;-) You sound like a real heathen now! [;)] I come from a "Katlik" background myself but for some reason never really believed even when very young. Belief must be the result of a characteristic predisposition besides a given environment. Atheism came naturally but I can still appreciate the comfort faith brings to others especially in times of personal distress. quote: quote: quote: The move was not serious. The move was simply words. No one was held accountable, no one was jailed (unless I missed something somewhere along the way...). I don't accept that as a serious move. On this we absolutely disagree. That could certainly be argued and I think not enough has been done even by Ratzinger but at least he has done considerably more than others about sex abuse including controversially change church law. Famously he persued Father Marcel for years. Marcel was a highly powerful individual who started the Legion of Christ and had a lot of powerful friends, even the previous pope. Ratzinger brought proceedings against him and his order but Marcel died the following year. Still not enough. He could have turned them over to civil courts that would have dealt with it. Again, Ratzinger, who likely didn't change that much, went with the popular movement in power to save his skin. So did he really change? I agree he didn't do enough but I feel he was going in the right direction. He started to take action in the 90's which was a time when sex abuse scandals were really only coming out. This was a time when there was massive resistance to even a slight concession in the church from the hierarchy. That's why I think that he isn't as bad as many in the church.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 6:51:42 PM)
quote: You sound like a real heathen now! I come from a "Katlik" background myself but for some reason never really believed even when very young. Belief must be the result of a characteristic predisposition besides a given environment. Atheism came naturally but I can still appreciate the comfort faith brings to others especially in times of personal distress. Same here. I can understand why people believe, even if I can't. quote: That's why I think that he isn't as bad as many in the church. Well given how low the bar was...

Anaxagoras -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 7:00:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: You sound like a real heathen now! I come from a "Katlik" background myself but for some reason never really believed even when very young. Belief must be the result of a characteristic predisposition besides a given environment. Atheism came naturally but I can still appreciate the comfort faith brings to others especially in times of personal distress. Same here. I can understand why people believe, even if I can't. Yeah, even though I agree with people like Richard Dawkins, I also see that religion does bring benefits to society too. quote: quote: That's why I think that he isn't as bad as many in the church. Well given how low the bar was... Good point...

cloudboy -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 8:33:52 PM)
In my hometown, the Catholics have built and operated several inner city schools, four of the best hospitals, and one of the best soup-kitchen / homeless shelters in the area. Also, as a rule, Catholics are not out there hating other people: i.e gays, immigrants, minorities etc. In general I would classify Catholicism as very centrist.

Aneirin -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/1/2011 9:06:34 PM)
People yes, there is good in people, religion or the lack of it irrelevant, but the church is the subject, the catholic church as is what the vatican is, people, they are only followers, pehaps even customers . The Catholic Church is the oldest institution in the western world. It can trace its history back almost 2000 years. Today there are more than a billion Catholics in the world, spread across all five continents with particular concentrations in southern Europe, the United States, the Philippines and the countries of Central and South America. What binds this diverse group of people together is their faith in Jesus Christ and their obedience to the papacy. Catholics believe that the Pope, based in Rome, is the successor to Saint Peter whom Christ appointed as the first head of His church. He therefore stands in what Catholicism calls the apostolic succession, an unbroken line back to Peter and has supreme authority. Popes can speak infallibly on matters of faith and morals but in practice do so rarely. ( Source ;http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/catholic/catholic_1.shtml )

cloudboy -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/2/2011 11:14:58 AM)
You don't really understand what you are talking about.

Aneirin -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/2/2011 11:16:45 AM)
And you do ?

cloudboy -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/2/2011 9:29:57 PM)
I think you are overemphasizing the influence of the formal system -- aka the Vatican and rules -- and under emphasizing the informal system of how Catholics practice their religion. Take American Catholics, they use birth control, have premarital sex, and openly tolerate gays -- they give to charity and do not politic for extreme political changes in the country. Additionally, priests do not enforce Catholic edicts in a gestapo manner and have full autonomy to write and give their own homilies. Also, there is an upside to central authority, namely nutcases get shut down. No part of the Catholic Church can get away with sponsoring or inciting terrorism. So, what you seem to be missing is the importance of the informal system. The Pope really has about as much influence with Catholics as the President of the US has with the general populace --- little. Its the priests, nuns, lay workers, parishioners, teachers, doctors, schools, and universities that touch and influence the lives of Catholics -- not the men wearing pointy hats in the Vatican.

Aneirin -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 12:07:22 AM)
The catholic church is the Vatican, I am asking if the church is a force for good, it's history suggests it is not. Now the believers are a different thing, they have to live in the real world, so live life as best they can according to their conscience and the prevailing conditions of living, and it does not take religion to make a person a good and caring person with good morals, that is the realm of conscience. So what the believers aka followers of the catholic church do is largely seperate from the doctrinal belief, so in that case if the real world dictates such variations from the Vatican and papal belief, could that be saying the latter is out of touch and indeed perhaps dying in the face of the modern world ?

tazzygirl -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 12:26:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin The catholic church is the Vatican, I am asking if the church is a force for good, it's history suggests it is not. Now the believers are a different thing, they have to live in the real world, so live life as best they can according to their conscience and the prevailing conditions of living, and it does not take religion to make a person a good and caring person with good morals, that is the realm of conscience. So what the believers aka followers of the catholic church do is largely seperate from the doctrinal belief, so in that case if the real world dictates such variations from the Vatican and papal belief, could that be saying the latter is out of touch and indeed perhaps dying in the face of the modern world ? From what doctrinal belief do you think they disassociate themselves from?

cloudboy -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 8:35:21 AM)
quote: The catholic church is the Vatican Spoken like a non Catholic.

Aneirin -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 11:23:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: The catholic church is the Vatican Spoken like a non Catholic. Ah, and that is where you are wrong ! But right in a way, for I did the RC bit until I learned to think for myself and dissasociated myself from dodgy Irish priests and guilt.

DomYngBlk -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 11:28:31 AM)
Why do you say he is wrong? He called you a non-Catholic and you went onto admit it and you call him wrong? Which is it

Moonhead -> RE: Is the Catholic Church a force for Good ? (8/3/2011 12:28:49 PM)
If he hasn't been excommunicated, then he's still Catholic: like a lot of churches, it has fuck all to do with what you believe. It's a power structure first, and a religion second, dig?

Page: << < prev 5 6 [7] 8 9 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.046875