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Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 10:27:06 PM

SuzeCheri

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I have a question. I was going to ask it on the Natural Submissive thread, but decided to make a new thread here to ask it. On that thread the idea of a "natural submissive" was sort of shot down. I can understand that in light of the way that thread was presented and developed. But it got me wondering something.

In your opinion is there such a thing as a naturally submissive person?

By this I mean a person who is perfectly capable of dealing with life and making decisions, but who just naturally responds to people who take a leadership role. Somebody who wasn't abused, or didn't have domineering parents or any apparent external reasons, but still just is that way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 10:37:41 PM

DeviantlyD

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Of course! :)

But I have to admit, whenever I see a profile that says "I'm something of a natural dom" or "I'm a natural sub/slave" (pick one), I crack up. It makes me think of this. :D

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:17:23 PM

Epytropos

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Didn't read the thread you're referencing so I won't speak to that, but regarding the issue generally I will reiterate what I said in the 'Why are you a dom/sub' thread a few days ago - Science tells us, and I tend to agree, that dominance and submissiveness, like most if not all traits, for the most part comes from a biological predisposition meeting up with the proper environmental factors. So, yes, by and large submissives are, in some sense, born that way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:38:58 PM

littlewonder

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quote:

By this I mean a person who is perfectly capable of dealing with life and making decisions, but who just naturally responds to people who take a leadership role. Somebody who wasn't abused, or didn't have domineering parents or any apparent external reasons, but still just is that way.

That pretty much describes me to a T.

I wasn't abused, parents weren't domineering. I'm simply a submissive personality. I am capable of running my own life but if I'm confronted with someone who is a leader and takes on a leadership role I'm definitely going to let them take charge...I shouldn't say let...more like they simply do take over because my personality works that way with dominant personalities.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:40:08 PM

SuzeCheri

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quote:

a biological predisposition meeting up with the proper environmental factors.

If the right environmental factors are needed, then wouldn't that mean they aren't actually really born that way, but are born in a way that "could" lead them to become a submissive person?

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:49:38 PM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
If the right environmental factors are needed, then wouldn't that mean they aren't actually really born that way, but are born in a way that "could" lead them to become a submissive person?

In some sense, I suppose. To me, if the typical person would never become a sub under any but the most extreme, psychologically damaging circumstances, but someone born a certain way would do so under many or most circumstances, that is sufficient to call it natural. That said, I'm not a believer in biological determinism so if that's your standard then no, there is no natural sub by that definition.

This is very much the same debate being had over homosexuality - a lot of science says it is a combination of the two, so do we call it nature or nurture? Of course, that debate is being hijacked by those whose political agendas depend on homosexuality as a choice, which is neither nature nor nurture, at least in the sense those things are meant, but it's a valid discussion just the same.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:56:47 PM

SuzeCheri

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I've noticed you saying things like that on various threads littlewonder, and you are one of the reason's I was wondering about this.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/1/2011 11:59:54 PM

SuzeCheri

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I think that I agree with you Epytropos, that it isn't a biological thing. But that makes me want to know what might trigger it. Any ideas anybody?

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 12:02:00 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I've noticed you saying things like that on various threads littlewonder, and you are one of the reason's I was wondering about this.

When I was a kid I was extremely and painfully shy. The only thing that brought me out of my shell was alcohol as a teenager and then when my husband died and for awhile I had a "fuck it" attitude towards life.

Now as I've grown older I realize that I'm still that painfully shy person that I always was. I still hate confrontation, I still hate crowds, I still hate having to do anything where I have to take a lead and step forward. I absolutely detest it.

There are times I have to though. I have a kid even though she's now an adult but I still have to from time to time. I have worked jobs where I've had to. Do I enjoy doing so? Nope, not even a little. Give me someone who will happily take over for me and I'm in heaven.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 12:15:17 AM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

I think that I agree with you Epytropos, that it isn't a biological thing. But that makes me want to know what might trigger it. Any ideas anybody?

Sticking to my (troublingly conformist...) theme of reciting psych journals like a PhD candidate on adderall, the two theories that come to mind would be that the sub sees their gender-apprpriate roll model behaving submissively and so takes to heart subconsciously that that is how they ought to behave OR that the sub is rewarded for behaving submissively in childhood and/or penalized for being assertive (for lack of a better term). Alternately, my experience has shown me that many subs have domineering parents of their gender who they dislike and are therefore driven in the other direction. This does not really conform to (or contradict) any research I've read, so take it as you will.

In short, they perceive and internalize as young children that ought to behave, or would be well-served by having, submissively, and that informs the development of their decision-making process.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:05:48 AM

SuzeCheri

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Those make sense, you do learn lots from just watching your family. But they don't seem to always be there. At least not always. Maybe other things can do it as well.

Do you think that just the right dominant person could bring it out?

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:09:06 AM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
Do you think that just the right dominant person could bring it out?

Most definitely.

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They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:12:45 AM

SuzeCheri

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Somebody who wasn't really submissive type personality could start being that way if they meet the right person. That's what we're both saying right?

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:18:55 AM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Somebody who wasn't really submissive type personality could start being that way if they meet the right person. That's what we're both saying right?

If they had the biological propensity for it.

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They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:37:58 AM

SuzeCheri

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Yeah. I forgot that, but yes.

That is sort of what I was thinking might be possible.

I wonder if anybody else agrees. guess we'll se in a bit.

Here's another thought. in a case like that, do you think the person would be submissive in general after that meeting, or most probably only to that person who triggered it?

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 1:50:23 AM

hematitan

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I definitely think some people are "born leaders" and some are more comfortable in supportive or submissive roles -- and everything in between, probably.

I've always been shy and introverted, and for the most part I gravitate away from positions of direct power or attention. I'd rather be behind the scenes, or be one of the one of the people coming up with or executing ideas rather than the boss who has to call the shots. I have no desire to reach the top of chain of command when it comes to work. I'm also inclined to want to please the people whom I respect, and do things for them.

I think if my parents influenced this at all, it was more watching their careers develop. Neither of them have/had submissive personalities. But I watched both my parents reach management positions in their respective careers, and saw all the challenges and responsibility that came with it, and also realized that with my personality, being in a role like that would be a challenge, and maybe not very rewarding. But I really think my personality is more nature than nurture.

But the thing is, I don't know that this is related to what I want for my relationships, or how much it's related to my sexual interests. I'm actually trying to be less submissive in my private life, even though I've accepted that I'll probably always be the sort who's inclined to let others pick what restaurant to eat at and little things like that. The idea of submitting to someone bothers me, though I suspect some of that is due to my current hesitance to commit to a serious relationship in general. I definitely have submissive fantasies, and would love to be with someone with whom I can act them out, but I'm not sure if I'd ever want to actually submit. Maybe someday. Actually, I'm interested in learning to top because even though I don't get as much sexual excitement from it, the idea of taking charge and being more active in a private, intimate context is really intriguing. I think for me, sexual submission is more about vulnerability, and I have a hard time letting myself be vulnerable. So I think that's why I approach submission differently when it comes to sex.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 2:27:09 AM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri
Here's another thought. in a case like that, do you think the person would be submissive in general after that meeting, or most probably only to that person who triggered it?

I would expect to see a minor shift, but the ones I've met that came to it late in life usually only had one Himself and everyone else they reacted to more or less the same. Never actually met a guy that did that, on reflection, though to be honest my experience with male subs is next to nil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hematitan

I definitely think some people are "born leaders" and some are more comfortable in supportive or submissive roles -- and everything in between, probably.

I've always been shy and introverted, and for the most part I gravitate away from positions of direct power or attention. I'd rather be behind the scenes, or be one of the one of the people coming up with or executing ideas rather than the boss who has to call the shots. I have no desire to reach the top of chain of command when it comes to work. I'm also inclined to want to please the people whom I respect, and do things for them.

I think if my parents influenced this at all, it was more watching their careers develop. Neither of them have/had submissive personalities. But I watched both my parents reach management positions in their respective careers, and saw all the challenges and responsibility that came with it, and also realized that with my personality, being in a role like that would be a challenge, and maybe not very rewarding. But I really think my personality is more nature than nurture.

But the thing is, I don't know that this is related to what I want for my relationships, or how much it's related to my sexual interests. I'm actually trying to be less submissive in my private life, even though I've accepted that I'll probably always be the sort who's inclined to let others pick what restaurant to eat at and little things like that. The idea of submitting to someone bothers me, though I suspect some of that is due to my current hesitance to commit to a serious relationship in general. I definitely have submissive fantasies, and would love to be with someone with whom I can act them out, but I'm not sure if I'd ever want to actually submit. Maybe someday. Actually, I'm interested in learning to top because even though I don't get as much sexual excitement from it, the idea of taking charge and being more active in a private, intimate context is really intriguing. I think for me, sexual submission is more about vulnerability, and I have a hard time letting myself be vulnerable. So I think that's why I approach submission differently when it comes to sex.

Sounds to me like that reluctance to submit on a broad level, outside the bedroom, is less the absence of proclivity and more just an emotional hangup. I might be wrong, but that's my read. Once you become comfortable with someone it would surprise me if you remained a 'sex-only' kind of sub.

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They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 2:43:20 AM

SuzeCheri

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That's a little reassuring. I don't like the idea that a single person could so totally rearrange somebody else's psyche.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 3:00:18 AM

Epytropos

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

That's a little reassuring. I don't like the idea that a single person could so totally rearrange somebody else's psyche.

Anything's possible. Afraid you'll meet the right (wrong?) girl and end up eating out of a kitty bowl forever?

< Message edited by Epytropos -- 8/2/2011 3:02:29 AM >

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They're only words. Don't dwell on them. They never mean what you think.

I speak only of My Way. Think it not an indictment of Your Way.

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RE: Not a natural submissive, but naturally submissive? - 8/2/2011 3:07:49 AM

SuzeCheri

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LOL, well that has crossed my mind.

< Message edited by SuzeCheri -- 8/2/2011 3:18:07 AM >

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