Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

CrazyCats -> Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 8:17:05 AM)

I have been rather conflicted about a personal philosophy regarding the concept of control as it relates to people other than myself. To my thinking, there are two perspectives of control and training. Generally this applies much more to a 24/7 D/s style of relationship, and for the purposes of this discussion, the differences between a full time submissive and a slave are ignored. Parts of these ideas can touch on a non-24/7 D/s relationship, but it is more clearly seen in a 24/7 lifestyle.

The first being the most straight forward, that a dominant, through teaching, correcting and removal of choices, maintains control over a submissive. This model of training assumes that the mind of the submissive can be directly altered by the will of the dominant. It leans towards a more absolutist division like a Master/Mistress and a slave. It assumes that submissives and slaves have given over their free will to the dominant as a final act of choice.

I do know that certain psychological conditioning and training styles seem to support this idea. Behavioral psychology working at all seems to support this idea. In general, the fact that training can achieve physiological, conditioned responses from another to completely unrelated stimuli, like a snap of the fingers or a bell, would point towards a subtle lack of actual free will in humanity.

The second perspective is that free will is not at all subverted by training. This line of thought argues that one person can influence another, and to what extent is a matter of degree, by that no one can truly control another. This perspective is somewhat more complex, because it is a matter of influence rather than a black and white matter of control. This perspective argues that choice happens at a higher level of thought, which is why Pavlovian conditioning works but can be overcome by the individual via self retraining.

So I turn the question over to my fellow D/s enthusiasts. Since the very acts of dominance and submission place us in a position to study the long term effects of training, conditioning, and individuality, what do you think? can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?

Can we even really tell the difference?



DecadentDesire -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 10:15:02 AM)

Degrees of influence. Direct control is a myth.

Skinner has some really cool ideas. His book is a good read. However, the notion that free will is an illusion and we are all just very complex rats reacting to stimuli in a big cage is something I can't buy into. It doesn't mesh up with my personal experiences and there is quite a few unanswered questions that pop up when you start to follow that line of logic down the rabbit hole.

That's all I have to say on the issue. I'm leaving this as a purposefully vague opinion, because I simply have  too much going on in my life to get caught up in a debate on Collarme.com about the nature of autonomy.



CrazyCats -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 11:02:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DecadentDesire

Degrees of influence. Direct control is a myth.



I am leaning in that direction myself, simply because my subjective experience with reality makes it rather hard to discount free will as existing. Though I do wonder if it is an inalienable part of us, or something that can be taken away. (Not that I would actually want to try it, it is simply curiosity.)

Thank you for your opinion, since you're not staying.



kalikshama -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 11:21:52 AM)

quote:

can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?


Considering POWs have demonstrated free will, I'd say anyone whose will gets subverted by kinky sex didn't have that much of it to begin with. Or is faking.



BitaTruble -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 11:39:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats

So I turn the question over to my fellow D/s enthusiasts. Since the very acts of dominance and submission place us in a position to study the long term effects of training, conditioning, and individuality, what do you think? can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?

Can we even really tell the difference?

I spent the better part of a year almost completely isolated from the life I had lived and known. Virtually everything and everyone was stripped from me. My country, language, culture, foods, family and friends were no longer available to me as a consistant support network. To this day, it still affects me in odd ways. It changed me, it scared me, it both weakened me in some ways and enhanced me in others. It's now a part of me. I don't think that Michael ever started out with the intention of isolating me nor would he have been able to foretell the effect it had on me but none-the-less I don't ever want to have to go through that again. It was a feeling of being absolutely alone and beyond that, being so very lonely. I hate that feeling. I didn't get to the Wilson stage but I was probably pretty close sometimes.

Not only can you tell the difference, when you've been through it, it's actually quite obvious. I know where I am different. I have no doubts at all about it. I can remember times where getting through the next 30 seconds was a great accomplishment because thinking about the 30 seconds beyond that was just too damn hard. I do believe, of course, that one person can influence another but it's not just people. There is also environment, particular circumstance and a host of other things. Hell, the sum of our lives is what we have already lived through, right? Everything that has come 'before' is what puts you in the here and now.

I had a nephew who spent 6 years in prison. He is markedly different from when he went in. His mannerisms are skewed from what they were in a big way and when I was watching him eat a simple dinner after he got out, the way he hunched over it, protected it as if someone were going to take it away from him.. it made me so sad to see it. I don't think I will ever see the boy I knew or the man he had become before he committed his crime. He was changed by his prison experience.

I think such things as 'will' can be moved in certain directions, sometimes it's a survival thing, sometimes its because you really want to please someone, sometimes it's because it's the best available option at the time and certainly behavior itself is fairly and easily influenced but bottom line, if it's something you choose, that comes from a healthy place, when it lines up with your own philosophy, then the question of whether or not you 'want' such is pretty moot. When you just live and be who you are.. then the 'will' of the stronger is the way of things. In our case, it's his will and his way. When something comes along which is stronger than his will.. then things will, no doubt, change.






HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 11:45:40 AM)

quote:

Since the very acts of dominance and submission place us in a position to study the long term effects of training, conditioning, and individuality, what do you think?

The flaw in your premise is that training and conditioning is required. Hanners has control over me because I give her that control, of my own free will. I obey her of my own free will because I want to obey her, I didn't need to be conditioned to do things the way she wants them done, I do it simply because that's the way she wants things and I want to do things her way.

A lot of the things she wants are very unpleasant for me, but that's not an issue. She wants them, so I want to do them. I submit because I want to, not because I've been trained or conditioned to. May not work for you, but it does for us, and therefore your premise is flawed.

quote:

can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?
Looking at this objectively, the obvious answer is yes, a person's will can be completely subverted, one only needs to look at cults. Jonestown, and the ones who were going to meet the spaceship come to mind, or the Branch Davidians. It is clearly possible to do it, though how long the person's will can be kept submerged is an open question, but it seems that with constant reinforcement it can go on quite a long time, but that some people will eventually reassert their will no matter what is done.



Epytropos -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 12:25:48 PM)

My research has indicated, and my experiences agree, that a short-term conditioning system like that of Pavlov et al will not work absolutely on a creature capable of cognition. As one of my psych professors was fond of saying, "Cognition overrides all." The key, therefore, is not just to alter the reptile brain, but instead to alter the cognitive paradigm as well. That is to say, change the way they think, such that instead of overriding your conditioning it reinforces it. I suspect that through the long-term application of training and emotional control cognitive processes could be made to operate quite differently than they do naturally. Certainly you see this in other situations - military training, brainwashing, interrogation, and so forth.

So the short answer is, no the absolute Pavlovian control could not be achieved through simple means. You would need to get the rest of the mind on board, changing and forming the entire person. Starting from a highly submissive personality it wouldn't be that huge of a shift.



mnottertail -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 12:28:32 PM)

reinforce the behavior that you desire.

You are gonna get alot more of your cock sucked by use of chocolate than vinegar.

What the mind can concieve and believe the mind can achieve.



BurntKitty -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 12:59:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

reinforce the behavior that you desire.

You are gonna get alot more of your cock sucked by use of chocolate than vinegar.

What the mind can concieve and believe the mind can achieve.


This is true. I'll lap up every bit of Hershey syrup drizzled over a cock. Not too many want to coat their cock in vinegar, however....



CrazyCats -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 1:19:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

The flaw in your premise is that training and conditioning is required. Hanners has control over me because I give her that control, of my own free will. I obey her of my own free will because I want to obey her, I didn't need to be conditioned to do things the way she wants them done, I do it simply because that's the way she wants things and I want to do things her way.




While I do not disagree that that sort of conditioning is purely optional, and if my original post came off that way, I do apologize for the miscommunication.

That said, One of the fun things to do when presented with the statement "I do it because I want to" is ask, "Can you prove that?" Can you show unequivocally that the desire to please springs naturally from yourself, or could it have been a guided response? (I know that the immediate response is an indignant and probably angry "No, I decided!" and that is what I am expecting.)


@Enpytropos: Well put! My experience and research has agreed with yours so far. My suggestion of starting with Skinner was simply as a good starting point. Knowing the basics never hurts, even if it is rather crude and impermanent.


@All: Thank you for your input! I do not get to sit and talk philosophy/psychology all that often anymore.



DesFIP -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 1:28:28 PM)

He doesn't have control over me, he has authority over me. There's an important distinction. He can change my behavior, but not my personality. He can forbid me to speak, but not to think.

More important he doesn't have any interest in removing my choices, punishing me, etc. Too damn much work for him. He wants my thoughts and desires to align with his because I believe he's right, that his choices are the correct ones. Not to force me into it under duress.

Since we're both highly compatible and highly intelligent, it's rare for us to disagree once we talk things out. On the few occasions where there is an irreconcilable difference, it means someone either hasn't done enough research into the subject or just doesn't understand something.



CrazyCats -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 6:22:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Since we're both highly compatible and highly intelligent, it's rare for us to disagree once we talk things out. On the few occasions where there is an irreconcilable difference, it means someone either hasn't done enough research into the subject or just doesn't understand something.




My wife and I get that same sort of similar opinions in the area of politics.





HannahLynHeather -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 6:44:39 PM)

quote:

Can you show unequivocally that the desire to please springs naturally from yourself, or could it have been a guided response?
yea i can horatio. i didn't fucking guide her, so its not a guided response.

heather is neither stupid nor a liar. next time she tells you how it works for her just take her fucking word for it, and don't try fit her into your limited world view.



Aswad -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/24/2011 8:25:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats

In general, the fact that training can achieve physiological, conditioned responses from another to completely unrelated stimuli, like a snap of the fingers or a bell, would point towards a subtle lack of actual free will in humanity.


Actually, the degree of conditioning possible is inversely related to the complexity of both the stimulus and the response.

That is, a complex stimulus is less able to elicit a response, and a complex response is difficult to elicit.

Causing salivation at the ring of a bell is easy. Causing one to recite a poem is not.

quote:

can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?


The ocean can erode mountains given enough time. Mountains are majestic. Cracked mountains less so. Rockslides are boring. Pebbles are largely annoying. Beaches of sand are pleasant/enjoyable, but ultimately a passive experience. Dissolved minerals in the ocean and silt on the bottom are of interest only to marine biologists and other students of the ocean. Marine clay can make great works of art.

Any man or woman can, especially with their own cooperation, be deconstructed given expertise, a controlled environment and enough time. In their original state, they are appealing. On the way down, they are not. At a certain level of deconstruction, they have a different kind of appeal, but lack the fullness of an agentive person. When entirely deconstructed, no attraction exists beyond what some might feel for comatose or otherwise unconscious people. When a new persona has been constructed from the raw materials of the old, that persona may again be appealing, and is certainly a piece of work in a technical sense.

I can't see myself investing the time to take someone full circle, and few seem to want that.

Some "aftermarket mods" and "customization" are more likely to be agreeable to both.

quote:

Can we even really tell the difference?


More to the point would be whether it even matters.

If you appreciate a given state, and can take someone to it, and they want to go there, where's the question mark?

Health,
al-Aswad.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 7:27:36 AM)

Sunny
Quote of the Day
goes to DecadentDesire
for
I'm leaving this as a purposefully vague opinion,
because I simply have  too much going on in my life
to get caught up in a debate on Collarme.com
about the nature of
a
 u
  t
   o
    n
     o
      m
       y
        .
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3821374/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3821451



ResidentSadist -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 8:18:33 AM)

Yes, someone's will can be subverted completely . . . unless the person doing the subverting believes in free will over determinism.  

Free will . . . of what?

Mind  - you can sharpen even the dullest mind or change the course of thought of the sharpest mind with mental conditioning, training and education.  

Body – the body is the easiest thing to capture, train and modify.  

Heart – love is easy, create trust and lust in someone, love will follow.  

Soul – if crusades subverted whole cultures and nations to change religions and spiritual beliefs to alter the destiny of their souls, cannot a Master change a slaves’ spirit?

Free will . . . no such thing.   Even Master’s are products of their environment.



Missokyst -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 8:53:17 AM)

....everytime I read one of these philosphical threads I wonder where I went wrong. I just do this stuff because it happens naturally, am I missing something?



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 2:03:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrazyCats

I have been rather conflicted...



Add more fiber and liquids to your diet. [8D]


quote:

 
...can another's will be subverted completely, or is it all a matter of degrees of influence that we have on one another?



Can someone's will be subverted completely?  Sure... it's called "brain-washing".  Is that what most on either side of the slash seek? No.  Many do, however, revel in the "degrees".  Why?  Because if there's no willful exchange of power, then then there is no "Power Exchange".  One cannot "exchange" that which they don't have to give.  The willful surrender is what most of the Toppy sort seek, as is the willful desire of those on the bottom side to find one to surrender to. [:)]




littlewonder -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 7:05:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

....everytime I read one of these philosphical threads I wonder where I went wrong. I just do this stuff because it happens naturally, am I missing something?


I feel the same way and why I don't always even respond to such threads. It's just not something I've ever asked myself or even care about.



Lucylastic -> RE: Some rumanations on control and mind-fuckery (8/25/2011 7:06:48 PM)

Id rather do it than talk about it philosophically, but then I have little patience with deep philosophy,



Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875