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The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 2:49:36 AM   
Aneirin


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I have been wondering seeing we are hearing so much about how the economy must be put first, and I have been asking others offline the same question which resulted in various answers, but still in a bid to understand I will ask that same question here of you fine folk ;

The economy, who does it serve ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone
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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 5:03:15 AM   
EternalHoH


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Which one?   We have 2 parallel economies.  The original economy (economy #1)  is for the peasants, the one that contains all the service sector jobs, and whats left of "making things".   This one used to be the one that made America great, where investing in the markets amounted to capitalizing those honest companies that made things. This economy featured the railroads and steel makers of old, where the first titans of industry made their money.

The newer economy (economy #2) is the parallel one based on the casino model, and is a playground for financial elites. This is where the newer titans of finance make their money.  Investing here does not capitalize the next generation of railroads or steel plants, they simply do not exist.  Investment returns here are a function of winning bets.

When each barrel of oil is drilled, it is traded 57 times within economy #2 while residing in the commodities markets (in essence, its gambling fodder first), allowing the elites to take their revenue cut first, before that barrel of crude is passed on to economy #1 with that parasitic expense already built into the price to be processed from crude into gasoline.  When the hash slingers and motel maids in economy #1 buy that gas for their car at gambling-inflated prices, their wealth is essentially being re-distributed to the elites in economy #2 with each gallon of gas they pump.

When the 2008 financial crisis hit, the banks playing within economy #2 nearly took down the entire financial system, and the peasants in economy #1 had to put their tax dollars towards bailing out economy #2, and in the process, saving the entire inter-connected financial system. The cost of these programs was put on the national credit card of those living and working within economy #1.

The government defined the bookends of the last recession based on the behavior of economy #2, which is why when the banks and casinos recovered, the recession was officially over, even though economy #1 still has a true 15% unemployment rate. The recession for economy #2 was V-shaped, while the recession for economy #1 is U-shaped.

All the gram & gramps within economy #1 who are invested in the markets mistakenly think their money is still being used within economy #1 to capitalize the honest companies that make things, as it was in the days of old, when actually it is being pooled and handed over to the elites in economy #2 to gamble with.  Every day, gram & gramps invested money is doing more damage than good.





< Message edited by EternalHoH -- 8/26/2011 5:28:15 AM >

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 6:09:12 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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The economy doesnt "serve" anyone. It exists, like the sun, water and air.

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Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 2:59:30 PM   
Termyn8or


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Well An, now you see it. One says there is no "economy" in a certain sense, that it just exists like a natural phenomenon. There is merit to this point of view, that it is like the sun or something like that. That is one way to assess reality, no better or worse than another, except for certain purposes. To view it as a force of nature somewhat, is to attempt to understand it as such. Like an environmentalist may focus on the effects of the sun, and therefore it's filtering through the atmosphere on the ecosphere of this planet. On the other hand, an astronomer is focussed on another aspect of it, and the chemist on yet another and so forth.

And then, we have the view that there are two economies. In a way that is like saying that there is a sun up in the sky, but then there is a sun out there in the universe cavorting with other bodies. This view is perfectly valid as well. On the one hand we have the economy as defined by investments and speculation. This of course has an effect on the other part of economy which is the ultimate price of the goods. What is little seen though is that the reverse is true. The little Man, through "economy" can indeed affect the "big economy" by eliminating demand.

Let's take the example offered of petroleum. The US is the fattest, grossest and out of shape population on the planet. Buy a car, the bicycle goes in the trash. THE TRASH. Paid $600, sell for $100 to some kid. We need our air conditiooned comfort with our tunezz, or our cellphone texting while we put on makeup on the way to work. And then we jockey around to get the closest parking spot to the entrance to the gym where we will hop on a treadmill. We will take the elevator up a measely three floors to get on a stairmaster.

This is conspicuous consumption and it is getting out of hand. We have what percent of the world's population and use how much of the world's oil ? Or other resources for example. This is where US citizens could really change things. They almost outlawed plasma TVs in Europe because of their insane power consumption, guess where they sell. It used to be illegal to sell a car with air conditioning in Montana. Some people can see this.

But in seeing multiple economies (sorry if I bounced around a bit) one must see more. There are an infinite number of economies, like universes. You see, if there is one alternate universe there are an infinite number. Each person has a personal economy. Credit, which has been waaaaay too available for waaaaaay too long has erased all the rules when it comes to that aspect.

But in the end I will answer your question directly. Not forget about the REALLY rich people. We have discussed them before, those who inherited the riches of Avarice and Crassus and such, forget all that I mean the neuvoriche'. That is who it serves. The Bushes, the Bill Gates'es, the Steve Jobs who has just found out that money isn't everything. The CEOs of Exxon, BP, GE. If you want to think about ti from that angle, it is simple, the economy serves those who it has obviously served. And served well.

T^T

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 3:39:24 PM   
MileHighM


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I think the question of who the economy serves is something that depends on the weather (political climate to be exact).

First, I feel the economy is one thing. It is the combined efforts of people to produce wealth. I.E. make stuff and do stuff of value to other people. That is all the economy is and ever will be. However, some suggest there is a second economy like Eternal mentions earlier. I contend this is not another economy because it creates nothing. It is a group of looters that feed off the economy. They entice the money out the economy the same way a guy playing shell games on the street does, they promise big bucks. Sure some get rich off it and get out. But, that is true of any casino. Eventually, the house always wins. They loot the economy and gamble away the wealth that is created. Sure they, at times, help raise money for businesses (like stocks and bonds purchases made for long term speculation), but when they are speculating commodities, interest rates, day trading, or buying up firms to gut them (corporate raiders) they are simply pissing away wealth for the short term creation of limited cash.

To expand on this theory I will define this clearly: looters are made up of any class of business or people who make nothing (investment bankers, lawyers, and politicians most notably). Producers are people who make wealth (the middle class [the human commodity of intellegence and labor], various industrialists, anyone who grows food or mines raw materials as they all add value and create tradable goods)

So, who does the economy serve? Ask yourself this: who is more regulated? Those who create wealth, or those who consume it? Right now, we are running our production off shore. American business feels the regulatory climate is better elsewhere. Now I am not saying we too harshly regulate business, but we don't regulate the looters enough here to balance that regulation of business. We have little real regulation on Wall Street and lawyers while the politicians and regulatory bodies are almost all made up of lawyers and wall street types. Therefore, they are free to feed on the economy without restriction. So right now, I would say the economy servers the looter elite, because the fox is watching the hen house so to speak.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 4:28:50 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The economy doesnt "serve" anyone. It exists, like the sun, water and air.



Yeah youre right, nothing in the financial systems that run the country to make the rich richer is there ? Are you sure you can do maths and work out things like average earnings ?

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 5:15:57 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The economy doesnt "serve" anyone. It exists, like the sun, water and air.




...not exactly. Take a bank, grind it down into its constituent elements and show me a particle of 'economy'.

Sun, water and air are physical objects that exist without humans to perceive them. The economy is an absolutely human artefact, like religion, society and politics.

Given that it is clearly a human artefact, then i have to ask what profit is gleaned by treating it as if it were a physical object that exists without our input. I assume, Willbe, that you benefit from an economy that is uncontrolled and untended. A frontier economy if you will.
However, once an economy becomes sufficiently big, sufficiently complex, then it must be tended and maintained.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 5:21:10 PM   
NewOCDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The economy doesnt "serve" anyone. It exists, like the sun, water and air.




...not exactly. Take a bank, grind it down into its constituent elements and show me a particle of 'economy'.

Sun, water and air are physical objects that exist without humans to perceive them. The economy is an absolutely human artefact, like religion, society and politics.

Given that it is clearly a human artefact, then i have to ask what profit is gleaned by treating it as if it were a physical object that exists without our input. I assume, Willbe, that you benefit from an economy that is uncontrolled and untended. A frontier economy if you will.
However, once an economy becomes sufficiently big, sufficiently complex, then it must be tended and maintained.



It isnt an artifact of being human, it is intrinsic to any organized group of animals, just as "Government" is. As soon as there is a group of 2 or more there is both a government and an economy, without any conscious decision to form them.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/26/2011 7:52:44 PM   
servantforuse


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The economy, who does it serve ? What a stupid f##king question. It serves everyone. Without an economy there would be no money.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/27/2011 12:48:38 AM   
Termyn8or


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In case you hadn't noticed in the realm of humanity, there are no stupid questions.

T^T

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/27/2011 1:06:19 AM   
Kajmir101


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I saw the news feed for this on the side of the screen while dealing with mail.
While it's polite to say there are no stupid questions,
fact is, there are, and if you've not heard one, then you don't socialize enough.

Now back to economics!

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/27/2011 1:14:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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"fact is, there are, and if you've not heard one, then you don't socialize enough."

LOL. That is true.

T^T

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/27/2011 7:20:33 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

Now I am not saying we too harshly regulate business, but we don't regulate the looters enough here to balance that regulation of business.



The question becomes who is going to stay in business when the looting is easier, when the shortcuts generate added wealth alot faster than owning a traditional business does.

I have said many times, who in their right mind is going to tolerate the 'hassle' of business ownership when handing what amounts to your seed capital (or stimulus dollars, or tax cuts) over to a hedge fund is easier and produces better returns. And it happens only because shortcuts were legislatively allowed to exist.

Say you have a patent that requires a special ore to build automotive spark plugs capable of going a million miles. You have to acquire the ore, process it, build a spark plug factory, deal with a hired factory workforce, pay taxes on your facilities and inventory, deal with just-in-time delivery issues of other raw material, pay for a fleet of trucks needed for outbound transportation of your final product, and sell a sufficient quantity to stay in business, earning maybe 8%.

When the same seed capital can be forked over and gambled on the life expectancy of retired civil servants, earning 30% returns, its not so much that the factory is going to end up offshored.  Rather, that ore ends up staying in the ground.

This is honestly where we are in this country today.  The comparing of enviornmental rules or corporate tax rates here vs. abroad is a silly political exercise, a faux blame-game distraction, and the only people who would ever gain from that exercise are those second-string players in the economy who are too dumb to see or are unable to access the full slate of available shortcuts.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/27/2011 7:41:58 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

looters are made up of any class of business or people who make nothing (investment bankers, lawyers, and politicians most notably).




You could definitely add the poor class perceptual welfare recipients to that list.  Its a problem in terms of quantity of recipients, since the poor occupy that bottom 99% of society.  And because of their high numbers, they often become a political target.  But on a dollars per recipent level, the top 1% loots far more than the bottom 99% combined. They also apply nicer names to their process, to obscure what they are doing.  Its not 'welfare', its 'investing'.  Also, the looting at the bottom level is largely for survival reasons - food on the table or a roof over the head (in addition to the drug habit).  The looting at the top is never for basic survival reasons, rather their reasons are only 'excess' or 'status'.

I don't understand why the bottom always gets top billing in political reform debates, when their contribution to the looting problem represents pennies on the dollar.

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/28/2011 2:32:02 AM   
Aneirin


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You see, everyone I have asked off line and on, seems to have a different take on what it is, yet we all hear about it on a daily basis in places like Britain, where the phrase the economy is the only force the government will say has to be strengthened even if it means everything else turns to shit in it's shadow. The trouble is all that turns to shit in the economy shadow equals real people, families and smaller businesses who see everything they have come to know diminish. Public services generally serve those at the bottom of the ladder better rather than those at the top, because although the top might be eligible, they don't need and often won't through status.

How about this for a description of what the economy is ;

The economy is a tool.

Not for the gain or enhancement of all, but not always to their damage either

If it is a tool, then in whose hands is it in and what are they using that tool for ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/28/2011 4:38:52 AM   
Edwynn


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Excellent explanation and demonstration as to the utter cluelessness of the underlying mindset in the UK, whence their progeny "took that ball and ran with it," as colloquialized other side of the pond.

An economy is what exists and has always existed among sentient humans since the time that better clothing or particular tools were traded for pottery and other particular tools amoungts near or far tribes.

Both societies had more time to build better huts and more time to devote to the arts a result.

You are confusing actual economy with the modern  co-optation of the term as cover for theft of society for financial gain of the few.

This is because you are British (to this day, idolaters of Rome), both empires being made upon colonization and exploitation of others to every extent possible, and that is part and parcel of the mindset you were brought up with, impossible to see it any other way.

Continental Europe has an inherently better grasp of the relationship between commerce and the notion of that commerce and trade being ultimately for purpose of serving society as a  whole.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/28/2011 5:10:36 AM >

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/28/2011 7:34:45 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The economy doesnt "serve" anyone. It exists, like the sun, water and air.

That's a huge cop-out. Economy obviously now serves only the investor class as reflected in the fast devotion to measuring something called gross domestic product ('product' ?)...as in production [sic] when we see ever increasing returns in the financial end (turning paper into money) for the paper-traders (speculators) that does not...'produce' anything.

There go the jobs and for the investor...good riddance. As an investor, I wouldn't hire a single American if I didn't have to, I go to China et al, where I can 'hire' some slaves. So, economy does NOT serve society...society serves economy. (profits)

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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/28/2011 10:07:18 AM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

Now I am not saying we too harshly regulate business, but we don't regulate the looters enough here to balance that regulation of business.



The question becomes who is going to stay in business when the looting is easier, when the shortcuts generate added wealth alot faster than owning a traditional business does.

I have said many times, who in their right mind is going to tolerate the 'hassle' of business ownership when handing what amounts to your seed capital (or stimulus dollars, or tax cuts) over to a hedge fund is easier and produces better returns. And it happens only because shortcuts were legislatively allowed to exist.

Say you have a patent that requires a special ore to build automotive spark plugs capable of going a million miles. You have to acquire the ore, process it, build a spark plug factory, deal with a hired factory workforce, pay taxes on your facilities and inventory, deal with just-in-time delivery issues of other raw material, pay for a fleet of trucks needed for outbound transportation of your final product, and sell a sufficient quantity to stay in business, earning maybe 8%.

When the same seed capital can be forked over and gambled on the life expectancy of retired civil servants, earning 30% returns, its not so much that the factory is going to end up offshored.  Rather, that ore ends up staying in the ground.

This is honestly where we are in this country today.  The comparing of enviornmental rules or corporate tax rates here vs. abroad is a silly political exercise, a faux blame-game distraction, and the only people who would ever gain from that exercise are those second-string players in the economy who are too dumb to see or are unable to access the full slate of available shortcuts.



What you are witnessing now is tha failure of the short cuts---Those don't make wealth, they consume it. If humanity stops making things, IE you spark plugs, the wealth eventually vanishes and there is nothing to be made on the hedge funds. It is not a short cut, it is mearly a scam to transfer wealth from one to another. Rather than in a Robin Hood manner, the system pulls a reverse Robin Hood and fucks the less affluent.

Once everyone is a looter, it is looters looting looters. The system collapses.

(in reply to EternalHoH)
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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/28/2011 10:14:58 AM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

looters are made up of any class of business or people who make nothing (investment bankers, lawyers, and politicians most notably).




You could definitely add the poor class perceptual welfare recipients to that list.  Its a problem in terms of quantity of recipients, since the poor occupy that bottom 99% of society.  And because of their high numbers, they often become a political target.  But on a dollars per recipent level, the top 1% loots far more than the bottom 99% combined. They also apply nicer names to their process, to obscure what they are doing.  Its not 'welfare', its 'investing'.  Also, the looting at the bottom level is largely for survival reasons - food on the table or a roof over the head (in addition to the drug habit).  The looting at the top is never for basic survival reasons, rather their reasons are only 'excess' or 'status'.

I don't understand why the bottom always gets top billing in political reform debates, when their contribution to the looting problem represents pennies on the dollar.




I didn't mention the poor... Why? Because they are not economic looters. They only recieve the scraps the big looters are willing to throw them in order to obfuscate their own looting. The poor don't file bullshit lawsuits because they know how to cheat the system. They do it because some thieving lawyer convices them they can get free money and appeals to their sense of greed. The lawyer uses them as a moral pawn. Once it is all done, ask yourself who really won? Not the plaitiff or the defendant. All the lawyers did though. They win regardless of who wins.

That is why I didn't include the welfare poor as looters. They never get ahead, because they don't control the looting. They are the moral pawns of the greater problem. Their plight garners the sympathy necessary to justify such dispicable behavior.

(in reply to EternalHoH)
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RE: The Economy and all that....... ? - 8/29/2011 3:40:28 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

This is because you are British (to this day, idolaters of Rome), both empires being made upon colonization and exploitation of others to every extent possible, and that is part and parcel of the mindset you were brought up with, impossible to see it any other way.


That is an excellent explanation of how Britons might perceive the economy, exploitation being the key, something Britain has a history of, and if it was not exploitation of peoples overseas via conquest and colonisation, it was and it seems now the people at home, the UK citizens are being exploited by those that wield the economy, dog eat dog and the more money and status one has the longer they can fend off the other dogs if that is they operate in the economic sphere.

But our Prime Minister, what is he at, why is the economy so important, well from a speech he made back in 2010 ;

�Economic weakness at home translates into political weakness abroad. Economic strength will restore our respect in the world and our national self-confidence.� The Prime Minister will say that he will �focus like a laser� on defending Britain�s national interest and will insist that the country remains a �great economic power�.

What I understand he is saying, is British politicians are nothing abroad if they do not have deep pockets to bribe their way in the world, so the economy is necessary to give those politicians their spending power.

The man on the street isn't interested in Britain's colonial exploits overseas, he just wants to live his life as best he can, and in many respects it is the man on the street that reaps the hatred of foreign nationals for the British elite's past meddling in other countries affairs, not the elite that perpetrated the actions, the public as world news always shows is the receiver of foreign hatred and actions, not the ivory towers.

Even the US dislike for the British over the tea party affair a couple of centuries back, was the action of the elites, not the man on the street at home, America was but a distant land to them, that many might emigrate to and oppose the British elite whence given a home where there is hope and action of a better future.

But national interest, what is Britain's national interest, well seeing as we are not a socialist country, I can only guess the national interest is the same as it has always been the enrichment of the few at the expense of the many, as money is the great pursuader, the political elites want the power to bribe their way around the world, as the age old cheaper option of employing the publicly funded and manned military to swing interests in their favour they know in this present world is increasingly being seen as unpalatabe by the more educated and aware mob, so the only option they have now, is to baffle us with bullshit to tow their line.

But yes, the analogy of ancient Rome is a correct one, and it would do many well to understand that ancient system, as many later empires are modelled on it, and if more understood, they would understand the power of the mob and how the elites must pacify the mob to maintain their status.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Edwynn)
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