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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 10:54:34 AM   
tolovetolaugh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk


How could manage to go through that and not have a clue of what your talking about?


Because I learned that changing a punishment because race is involved is ridiculous.
It is even more ridiculous when there is such a huge double standard involved.


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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 10:56:04 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Status: offline 		So you are confirming what I am talking about then. I figured you would

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 10:56:48 AM   
tolovetolaugh


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Status: offline 		can you disprove the double standard?

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:00:02 AM   
DomYngBlk


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Status: offline 		Sure, that was my original premise.

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:02:18 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TransformaDomme

quote:

When it gets down to it motive doesn't really make a murder worse, killing another human being is about as bad as it gets outside of sexual abuse of UMs.


Yes it does. "I killed him because he was terrorizing the neighborhood, raping young girls, beating up pre-schoolers, and selling drugs at the church, even, and, the police would do nothing." is distinctly better than "Oh, look, he's black." as a motive for killing someone.

If you walk in on your lover, who is doing your brother in a way that is traumatizing your dog, who really really doesn't want to be involved, while laying across a picture of your mother and making the coloring bleed out, and, you fly into a rage and kill them, it's bad. But, it's a situation that is extremely unlikely to happen again, you didn't plan on having happen, and, has to do with needing to learn self control on all sides.

If you walk into the room and your brother kills you for catching him, it is a worse murder, though in either case, the people are just as dead.

The point being, really, that someone who kills out of protecting others or out of self protection, probably won't do it again, under other circumstances and will probably feel so bad they won't want to do it again. Someone who goes out seeking a certain type of person, to abuse, to kill, is probably going to do it again, repeatedly. Even if they are seeking out criminals and killing them, they are still feeding a very dark thing inside them, that will only get worse over time and be very detrimental to society at large.

So, yes, motive does make a big difference!


Kind of a whackadoodle post, but then again, I guess whackadoodle is not unexpected from someone who has more than 20 profiles.

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:04:17 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

We got to a point where we put the hate behind.


What you are not seeing is that some people aren't capable of putting that hatred behind them. It feeds and festers... and they eventually succumb to that hatred.

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:05:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Because I learned that changing a punishment because race is involved is ridiculous.
It is even more ridiculous when there is such a huge double standard involved.


How have you learned this?

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:06:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		But the point made is solid.

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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:11:46 AM   
tolovetolaugh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

We got to a point where we put the hate behind.


What you are not seeing is that some people aren't capable of putting that hatred behind them. It feeds and festers... and they eventually succumb to that hatred.


Having a law so open to abuse does not fix that.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/election/1080

"Back during Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, we became acquainted with the term “human shields.” This was the name given to innocent citizens whom the Iraqis would place in buildings that were obvious military targets so as to confront the West with a dilemma: either refrain from bombing such facilities and handicap yourself militarily or endure a public-relations disaster for “targeting” innocent women and children. While this is considered a most cowardly and underhanded tactic, it essentially is done on political battlefields all the time. To pass social-engineering legislation, proponents don’t need to bother with intellectual appeals and logical argumentation. In fact, this would be counter-productive as such an approach would expose the fallacies that are their positions. So, instead, they just trot out some human-interest story, some poor, unfortunate soul who is emblematic of the supposed problem they promise to remedy.

This is easy to do, too, as there are eight million stories in the Naked City. Want to galvanize support for socialized medicine? Just find someone who developed cancer shortly after losing his health insurance. Want to enact more gun-control laws? Just find someone whose loved one was killed by a criminal wielding a Glock. Then, want to pass more hate-crime laws? Just use Matthew Shepard, the 21-year-old homosexual college student who, in a brutal and much-publicized 1998 Wyoming crime, was beaten and left for dead. You’ll have a type of human shield of which Saddam Hussein could only dream."


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RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:14:45 AM   
tolovetolaugh


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Status: offline 		Here is another good one-
"
  • Hate crime bills create inequality by designating special groups of people who are more worthy of protection. The Constitution already guarantees justice and equal treatment for all. So then, a law that singles out and gives extra protection and special treatment to special groups of people for their religion, sexual orientation, age, race, disability, etc. is unjust. All people should be treated the same. The words, ‘Equal justice under law’ are engraved over the entrance to the Supreme Court and testify to what makes American laws just. It is not fair to apply a harsher sentence of punishment for hitting someone with a rock because of race than when hitting someone with a rock because of a dislike for her ugly face. Splitting someone’s head open with a rock deserves the same punishment regardless of the motive. Should tall people be given preference over short people? But why must one be short or tall to be given extra protection? Those whose heights are in between deserve as much protection as anyone else.

    < Message edited by tolovetolaugh -- 9/8/2011 11:15:36 AM >

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    • Profile   Post #: 250
    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:16:53 AM   
    DomYngBlk


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    Status: offline     		If I had the same equal protection as you. I'd agree, but I don't

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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:19:53 AM   
    tazzygirl


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    Status: offline     		Police arrested Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson shortly after the attack, finding the bloody gun and Shepard's shoes and wallet in their truck.[12]

    Henderson and McKinney later tried to persuade their girlfriends to provide alibis for them.[13]

    At trial, McKinney offered various rationales to justify his actions. He originally pleaded the gay panic defense, arguing that he and Henderson were driven to temporary insanity by alleged sexual advances by Shepard. At another point McKinney's lawyer stated that they had wanted only to rob Shepard, and never intended to kill him.[12]

    During the trial, Chastity Pasley and Kristen Price (the pair's then-girlfriends) testified under oath that Henderson and McKinney both plotted beforehand to rob a gay man.

    May want to be careful and check out blog sources before posting them. This attack was no hoax. The hate crime was admitted as the perpetrator tried to use it as a defense.



    _____________________________

    Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
    RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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    Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
    If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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    Profile   Post #: 252
    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:22:16 AM   
    tolovetolaugh


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    Status: offline     		In 2004, for instance, ABCNews published a report based on a 20/20 investigation indicating that Shepard’s killers, Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson, were drug addicts who targeted Shepard for robbery and then murdered him while experiencing “methamphetamine rage.” Among the other facts brought to light by 20/20 are that the prosecutor and a detective working the Shepard investigation didn’t think his case was a “hate crime” and that McKinney and Henderson attacked another man in the same fashion a little while after brutalizing Shepard.

    < Message edited by tolovetolaugh -- 9/8/2011 11:24:31 AM >

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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:25:47 AM   
    tolovetolaugh


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    Status: offline     		Its a great example of how things get blown out of proportion when you bring hate crime debates into a crime.

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    Profile   Post #: 254
    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 11:29:13 AM   
    Lucylastic


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    Motive and extenuating circumstances have been part of the law for how many centuries and NOW all murders should be the same? and should be treated identically?
    Not going to happen, because life has shades of grey, not absolutes.
    There is a reason for that too.
    motive goes to how many levels of murder /manslaughter, accidental, reckless etc etc
    you are never going to get rid of those , hate crimes are never going to go away either and neither should the penalties

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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 1:08:20 PM   
    lovmuffin


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rulemylife


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lovmuffi

    The hate crime laws were enacted to combat state kangaroo courts. I get it but to enhance punishments or enhance charges because of the motive is where I have the problem.  Murder is murder. Why should or could some one for example get a life sentence for murder because they hated white guys as apposed to 20 years for the same crime because they wanted your money ?  I don't have a problem calling them hate crime statutes either, just the notion that you can enhance the penalties or charges because they hated a race or some such thing. 



    No, they were not enacted for that.

    The case in in question here is a prime example of why hate crime laws were established.

    These kids went looking for a black person to hurt. He was a complete stranger to them and he ended up dead.



    So, what if they went looking for an old person to hurt or a kid or my sister even. I don't care if the guy was white or black or if they wanted to kill the first convenient person they ran across  for the thrill of it. It's murder with depraved indifference.  All murder with depraved indifference weather a hate crime or not should be treated the same.

    And yes, my mistake on the reason hate crime laws were enacted, I was thinking about the federal statutes they can use to charge some one with civil rights violations.


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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 1:19:38 PM   
    lovmuffin


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

    Gangs kill people in other gangs. They dont care what color they are.

    Gangs do, however, tend to be racially segregated with a few notable exceptions. (The International Posse of Homestead where I taught was one of those)

    To add to that. Gangland is generally a bunch of sensationalist crap that tries to scare the hell out of people.


    I watch gangland too and I'm not seeing it as crap. Do you think they are making that shit up ? I certainly wouldn't mess with one of those guys either. Even with the way low probability I would have a confrontation with a gang member and even if I'm confident I could defend myself I would back down or run because you would have to be looking over your shoulder all the time while the whole freakin rest of those guys are after your ass.


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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 1:29:10 PM   
    lovmuffin


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rulemylife

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: tolovetolaugh

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rulemylife


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lovmuffi

    The hate crime laws were enacted to combat state kangaroo courts. I get it but to enhance punishments or enhance charges because of the motive is where I have the problem.  Murder is murder. Why should or could some one for example get a life sentence for murder because they hated white guys as apposed to 20 years for the same crime because they wanted your money ?  I don't have a problem calling them hate crime statutes either, just the notion that you can enhance the penalties or charges because they hated a race or some such thing. 



    No, they were not enacted for that.

    The case in in question here is a prime example of why hate crime laws were established.

    These kids went looking for a black person to hurt. He was a complete stranger to them and he ended up dead.


    There are plenty of cases where some wack job goes looking for someone to hurt, and someone ends up dead.
    We have laws in place to deal with that.





    Are you really this ignorant that you do not understand certain groups of people have historically been discriminated against and often suffered violent deaths as a result of that discrimination? 

    Here is some help for you: 

    Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention

    The Act is named after two victims of bias-motivated crimes in the United States, Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr.[/link] [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard]Matthew Shepard was a student who was tortured and murdered in 1998 near Laramie, Wyoming because he was perceived to be homosexual. [/link][link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd,_Jr.]James Byrd, Jr. was an African-American man who was tied to a truck by two known white supremacists, dragged from it, and decapitated in Jasper, Texas in 1998.[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_and_James_Byrd,_Jr._Hate_Crimes_Prevention_Act#cite_note-ci-6][/link]




      The examples above are examples of depraved indifference.  See post 256. What if Shepard and Bird had murdered this guy in the exact same way because he said hi to his / their girlfriend / sister or something. Why should the penalty be any different.


    _____________________________

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    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 1:40:42 PM   
    lovmuffin


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

    FR


    Motive and extenuating circumstances have been part of the law for how many centuries and NOW all murders should be the same? and should be treated identically?
    Not going to happen, because life has shades of grey, not absolutes.
    There is a reason for that too.
    motive goes to how many levels of murder /manslaughter, accidental, reckless etc etc
    you are never going to get rid of those , hate crimes are never going to go away either and neither should the penalties


      You make some good points and not only that, penalties and the level of charges can be different from state to state.  My point however is still valid. The circumstances of depraved indifference are still pretty much the same.  Given the same heinous type of murder whether because you don't like some ones race or because they walk too slow from a limp the penalties should be pretty much the same.


    _____________________________

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    Profile   Post #: 259
    RE: fucken Huff post is racist! - 9/8/2011 1:43:40 PM   
    Lucylastic


    Posts: 40310
    Status: offline     		there are so many levels of paying for the crime of killing someone, hate crime is another sub level

    and yes, I think its appropriate until all understand that there is a reason for the levels and motives and extenuating circumstances
    You might not like it, but if you ever get caught with a dead body in your "baggage" you might be glad of those levels and labels etc etc even if you are as guilty as sin.
    There are very few people ready to admit to being a killer and want to be punished to the full extent of the law.
    Would you rather get a charge of manslaughter, or drunk driving causing death, or murder 1?
    at the end of the day, the family of the victim has got a death to deal with, dead is dead right? does it make it easier knowing that .... it was just a drunk driving accident or , a fight that ended in an accidental death, or being killed because they are gay or transgendered or black or asian or white???

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