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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 10:35:48 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		How did a 9/11 thread turn into a diatribe about Israel? Planes were not hijacked in Israel, nor were they flown into Israeli buildings.

Will terrorism always be considered a valid tactic? Ask the British if they considered our colonial uprising a couple of hundred years ago to involve terrorist tactics. Actually, as wars go, that one was pretty limited and fought without a lot of savagery- we were going to remain trading partners and most people knew it.

Did the people who flew the airplanes into a tower have a legitimate grievance with the US? Nope. There was a recent article in the Times by a Pakistani decrying US involvement in the region that shows this viewpoint. Well, the first problem they've got is their president, Karzai is as crooked as they come. The US didn't stick him in there (or even if we did- he's been there with popular support). The author did acknowledge that Karzai is a problem, but focused primarily on how dreadful US drones are in Afghanistan and Pakistan and how we haven't done a good job of nation building. Well, if you want to bake a cake and all you've got is manure, you're not going to get very far. The differences between nation building in Japan, and Germany was that prior to the dictatorships, those countries had working societies. Its much harder to instill a society where none existed prior.

Terrorism is often used by people who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. Instead, it's easier to blame some far off country that has pernicious influence throughout the world- and it's all a plot by the US to take over their country. Well, as a US citizen, to me the first question is- who in the US would actually want your country- or to run the place.

At the end of the day, I fall back on envy as being a good motivator for what's going on. Iraq wanted US style goods to purchase, but didn't want the US style freedoms that make the production of those goods possible. That seems to be a common complaint amongst Middle Eastern terrorists- they want the fruits of the US, but they can't stand the idea of the religious freedoms, or freedom of speech, or emancipated women etc. These folks want to play in their own damn mud puddle- and I'm much happier letting them do so. We should never have gotten involved in these wars in the first place- I said so at the time, and nothing has changed my mind. I still don't see how 9/11 justified the invasion of Iraq- they never had the capabilities to develop serious chemical or biological chemical weapons and their nuclear capabilities still had a long way to go.

Also- am I worried about another attack? Nope, that's gotten less likely because it's harder to recruit. The success of Arab uprising in countries such as Tunisia has shown the Arabs that the US is largely irrelevant to them- as it should be. They want a revolt and to build a new country- great! But if you're a terrorist looking to recruit for an attack on the US, these folks can now say- why bother?


Cheers,

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/12/2011 10:37:02 AM >

(in reply to StrangerThan)
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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 10:41:01 AM   
Rule


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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 12:06:36 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
THis same proposal garnered stiff resistance from Syria, who rejected normalization, insisting the offer was too
generous for the Jewish people.

2003 was not the originating date of the propsal. It initially rose in 2002, promulgated by Saudi Arabia.

The initiative included normalisation which was a move forward after the Three No's of Khartoum in '67 but the Arab League said recognition of Israel was just a recommendation. It would subsume Israel's Jewish identity which was the whole reason there was conflict in the first place. The League refused to negotiate at all so it was a take it or leave it offer.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/12/2011 12:12:56 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 12:51:12 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?


70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.






You are welcome to explain to the audience here how the situation today or in the last ten years has anything whatsoever to do the situation as existed 70 years ago.

In any way, shape, or form.

The other Western countries (and one large non-Western country) were not fighting any ideology, such claim as would easily be controverted by the numerous "racial hygiene" and proto-fascist groups in France, Britain, and the US during the 20's and 30's.

They were fighting intruders and land grabbers, plain and simple.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/12/2011 1:17:54 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 12:57:02 PM   
MileHighM


Posts: 400
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?


70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.






You are welcome to explain to the audience here how the situation today or the last ten years has anything whatsoever to do the situation as existed 70 years ago.

In any way, shape, or form.







I don't think StrangerThan is aware of the anti-war protests and demonstrations that went on during WW2. I think the difference between today and 70 years ago is that the global community is so complicit in the unrest that is goin on right now, you can't point a finger and be 100% sure you are not pointing it in the right direction. It was easier with Hitler. The Brown Shirts went off on streak of craziness no one could identify with. you coudn't even blame it on the treaty of Versilles. It was more than a German reaction.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 12:59:10 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?


70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.






You are welcome to explain to the audience here how the situation today or in the last ten years has anything whatsoever to do the situation as existed 70 years ago.

In any way, shape, or form.




Google "Anglo Iranian oil".

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 1:50:40 PM   
Edwynn


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"Anglo Iranian Oil Company" (AICO) you mean.

Been there.

The  book "A Peace To End All Peace" (David Fromkin) explains well the beginnings of the situation we have before us today, but explained in purely political terms that suit the audience here.  The off-handed mentioning of "that man from Standard Oil" twice in the entire book, no mention of British or Dutch oil interests at all, tell us all we need to know. The rendition of how Britain kicked France's arse in the political/colonial/foreignlandgrab game seemed to be the focus in this book.


Hardly a mention at all of the MI-6/CIA coup ousting Mosaddegh to put the Palahvi in his place.

But apologist authors still tell us much not available elsewhere. Witness Niall Ferguson.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/12/2011 2:16:22 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 1:53:40 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Samboct please look deeper into the American Revolution,particularly as it was fought in the Carolina's .Shall you do so I am sure you will come to understand how wrong your "pretty limited and fought without a lot of savagery "statement is.

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 3:04:55 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

After 9/11, Bush offered the specious rationalisation that 9/11 was conducted by "terrorists who hate our freedoms".

While there's no doubt 9/11 was carried out by people blinded by a fanatical extreme ideology, do people accept this analysis as the underlying cause?

And if people are happy with this superficial analysis, is it possible to defeat an idea/ideology through military might?


70 years ago, absolutely. Otherwise you'd be saluting with one hand and wearing a swastika.

Today? Doubtful. There are too many people in the world like you to ever do something so grand again.






You are welcome to explain to the audience here how the situation today or in the last ten years has anything whatsoever to do the situation as existed 70 years ago.

In any way, shape, or form.

The other Western countries (and one large non-Western country) were not fighting any ideology, such claim as would easily be controverted by the numerous "racial hygiene" and proto-fascist groups in France, Britain, and the US during the 20's and 30's.

They were fighting intruders and land grabbers, plain and simple.



Controvert it if you wish. Turn it on its backside if you want. What you're saying is that the man in Germany was not driven by his own brand of twisted ideas and his own hatred, when those are well documented. Land grabbing as you put it was subservient to the ideology, from which rose both the fundamental concepts of reunification of  germanic tribes that were unjustly divided among different nation states, and the idea of slave races that had less of a right to live than the master races.

The question put forth was whether ideas or ideology can be defeated by military might. History demonstrates that answer is yes. Is it doable now? Probably not. The same groups you talk about that are essentially marginalized by history, can now claim a much louder voice. Add to that our own intimate knowledge of what happens when ideologies run wild, and we are as much our own enemy at times as someone holding a gun. The world no longer holds the will, the courage,  nor the capital to fight a war like WWII. What we do have the will and courage to do is endlessly criticize, to adopt a stance and subvert truth to fit whatever twisted interpretation we want to fit on a given point or side.

Tweak likes to talk about the bullying history of Israel. I'll grant you you, they have kicked some ass, and gone over the top at times in response, but what you will rarely find in their history is an unprovoked response. The proposal she touts is one where previous three and a half decades saw the established sentiment encompassed by the three no's of Khartoum, that being no recognition, no peace, no negotiation. Actually offering to recognize them is a huge step forward, though to this day, 20 members of the Arab League still do not recognize Israel. That's 20 of 22. Count them.

To that end, they offer a peace pipe that allows no negotiations, that says in effect, we'll quit hating you if you go back where you belonged in 1948, a resolution that cuts the country in half with, I believe, 9 miles being the narrow point, that is ultimately indefensible in the face of enemies that surround you. These are the same people who massed troops along their borders in 1967 with the promise floating between them that they would soon be in Tel Aviv And she calls Israel illegitimate?  By what fucking definition of the word do you call a nation illegitimate that has had to fight for its very survival since the day it was formed?

If the Arab League wants real peace, they'll police themselves. That's kind of hard to do however when the nations basically formed into dictatorships or kingdoms rather than anything that resembled giving one shit about their people.







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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 3:53:32 PM   
Edwynn


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The OP to chose de-rail her own thread, and you found cause to pursue thuswise.

Congratulations to you both.


BTW, it's not me that controverts, but factual history itself that goes against whatever silly notions you have.

Investigate, deal with it, or not.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/12/2011 4:03:37 PM >

(in reply to StrangerThan)
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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 5:20:44 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



The OP to chose de-rail her own thread, and you found cause to pursue thuswise.

Congratulations to you both.


BTW, it's not me that controverts, but factual history itself that goes against whatever silly notions you have.

Investigate, deal with it, or not.









And you are an idiot.


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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 5:26:01 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

You want a real proposal?  Establish some fucking sense of security given that you want Israel essentially bisected by the very people who want to kill them. Because there is none, and there is no commitment to establishing it either.


For as long as I have been alive, Israel has been killing Palestinians at a rate of c 10 Palestinians for 1 Israeli dead.

Yes Both sides in the ME have security issues. The Palestinians have a far more urgent one.

In 18 years of negotiation, Israeli conditions for 'peace' have escalated. The theft of the West Bank, the major obstacle to peace goes on unabated. The colonisers' main aim is "to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian State" ie to continue the state of permanent semi-war that currently exists.

The Israeli Palestine question lies at the heart of ME instability and terrorism. How many terrorists didthe invasion of Gaza 2008 (Cast Lead) create? A lot more than it killed. This issue is widely viewed as one of the fundamental causes of Islamic extremism and terrorism. Even warmongers like Blair have recognised this explicitly.

Will there be a end to Islamic extremism as long as this question remains unresolved.? Most unlikely. If the US was really serious about attacking terrorism, it would kick its Israeli proxy to the peace table, and force it to make peace. That's probably the most effective single step against Islamic terrorism the US could take.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/12/2011 5:52:10 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 6:07:53 PM   
Edwynn


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To the original proposition;


There is a country that went from being the best of friends to most all of the world immediately post-9/11, by those other countries' own doing, terrorist recruiting dipping to an all time low, diplomatic doorways opened as never before; who then ventured forth to not only reverse all that, but chose course of action so as to present not only the homeland but all the rest of the world with greater terrorist or otherwise security threat than has ever existed before, by way of nonsensical and thoroughly unfounded (other than US sales of anthrax to Saddam by Bush I) foreign invasions.

Diplomatic coup if ever there was, if understanding the ultimate beneficiaries here.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/12/2011 6:27:02 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 6:34:58 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

For as long as I have been alive, Israel has been killing Palestinians at a rate of c 10 Palestinians for 1 Israeli dead


Just because the Israelis are better at killing does not mean the Palestinians stand on higher moral ground.

The history is there for all to see...no use rehashing it at every chance to satisfy a personal grudge.

This conflict has equal amounts of blame for all involved and no third party will or can influence a peaceful outcome. They will have to just kill each other until they are fed up with killing and forge a meaningful peace on their own.

The west has made many mistakes in the middle east but they is one thing you constantly seem to overlook when you deride the US support for Israel…we truly want peace in the area where other outside parties do not.

Butch

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 6:45:12 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

This conflict has equal amounts of blame for all involved and no third party will or can influence a peaceful outcome.
The west has made many mistakes in the middle east but they is one thing you constantly seem to overlook when you deride the US support for Israel…we truly want peace in the area where other outside parties do not.


The US supplies arms, money and diplomatic cover to Israel. The US is Israel's only ally (Doesn't that speak for itself?) It's delusory to pretend the US is even-handed in this matter. For as long as the US tolerates Israeli behaviour and criminality, that behaviour is not going to change.

If the US cut off its support for Israel until it behaved like a civilised country, there would be a peace treaty in no time. I think it's probable that merely a US threat to withdraw support would be sufficient to bring Israel to its senses. This policy has worked before (Eisenhower forced an Israeli withdrawal from Sinai following the 1956 conflict using this threat). As Israel cannot afford to lose its sole remaining benefactor and friend, it will succeed again.

I'm sure most American people (excluding the more fanatical Zionists) want peace, as most people around the world do. Governments seem to have a way of subverting this desire don't they?

For as long as this running sore is allowed to fester, there will be terrorism. It is in everyone's (including Israel's) interests that the US takes the steps outlined above.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/12/2011 7:01:36 PM >

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 6:47:41 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

And you are an idiot.




Display of facts can evoke that response from some people.





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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 7:00:01 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		See your true colors come out... the US has always wanted peace in the area but will not abandon or stand by and let a people be slaughtered whose country was mandated by the UN.

A multi- nation Arab army has tried on multiple occasions to destroy Israel and has faced the consequences which are their own damn fault…not ours or Israel’s. They refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist and yet you expect them to open their borders…give back captured land… and put their children under the guns of hostile neighbors.

Everyone in this mess has made mistakes…NO one side has the moral ground and you and your likes constant tirades and rants without balance will do no one any good.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 7:14:49 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		If the US wants peace why does it arm one side to the teeth? Why does it deny Palestinians the right to self determination? Why does it use its veto to protect Israel from the consequences of its many crimes?

American indulgence of Israel has allowed this conflict to last far longer than it should have. It underwrites Israeli intransigence and aggression. The rest of the world can see that.

There is no credible military threat to Israel in existence. Israel has nuclear weapons. All this talk about annihilation is just rhetoric. It's never going to happen. It does provide a smoke screen for Israel to continue its theft of another people's land.

And all that is fundamental to ME instability and terrorism. The link between Israel and 9/11 is pretty clear to most people outside the US. Here's one analysis outlining it. Until Americans accept this link, the 'war against terrorism' will never succeed. How can you win if you're not even addressing the problem?




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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 7:52:49 PM   
Edwynn


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Thanks for so clearly outlining that the agenda of the OP had nothing at all to do with what transpired on that eventful day, but rather some other political purpose of your own.


Good show.




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RE: 9/11: 10 years on ..... - 9/12/2011 7:54:11 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


To the original proposition;


There is a country that went from being the best of friends to most all of the world immediately post-9/11, by those other countries' own doing, terrorist recruiting dipping to an all time low, diplomatic doorways opened as never before; who then ventured forth to not only reverse all that, but chose course of action so as to present not only the homeland but all the rest of the world with greater terrorist or otherwise security threat than has ever existed before, by way of nonsensical and thoroughly unfounded (other than US sales of anthrax to Saddam by Bush I) foreign invasions.

Diplomatic coup if ever there was, if understanding the ultimate beneficiaries here.




Yes. The story post 9/11 is one of diplomatic and military blunders. Not all of them American either. There was a coalition of the willing involved in Iraq II and Afghanistan.

The causes of terrorism remain unaddressed everywhere. Hamas and Hezbollah are governing States and statelets today. Iran is stronger than ever and just as defiant of the West. Iraq operates pretty much as a province of Iran. Afghanistan is marking time until the West retreats and the Taliban take over again.

The military strategy has produced results precisely opposite to those it sought. At the time this strategy was adopted, its many critics pointed out it hadn't a snowball's hope in Hell of success. Those critics have been proved correct by events.

The only significant victories in this ill-conceived 'war' has been that a second 9/11 has not happened and the demise of JI in Indonesia (a victim of its own excesses as much as anything else). London Bombay Bali and Madrid got minor 9/11s instead. The most notable development may have been the 'Arab Street's' rejection of extremist ideology.

If this represents an accurate score card then surely it's time that the entire project was re-conceived and a strategy that offers the possibility of success devised.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/12/2011 7:59:16 PM >

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