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flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant pers... - 10/18/2004 8:14:16 PM

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Ok..this is one of this girl's favorite coffee topics..and generally Doms have good fun with it..she saw below where someone asked it invertedly. In the can a Dom be trained thread. So...
Can a person with an otherwise aggressive, dominant "personality type" be made a slave. Now this one is not talking about masochist. Masochism and sadism she agrees are innate neuron characteristics.
she will use herself as example...often people will refer to themselves as natural or born submissives, she is not one of these. Nor is she even masochist, however she has learned to derive pleasure from her Owner's pleasure...so by proxy she can perform masochistic acts...however she doesn't personally find the acts arousing, only her Owner's reaction/pleasure involved. she was president of the debate team in high school, and college...and is by and large an aggressive and extroverted, some would say dominant personality type. Yet, at some point, she was betrothed to a man who somehow..turned her into His slave, His property. And she will add quite to her dismay as a matter of fact. It was not at all this contractual agreement many people describe. There was really no discussion at all, it just developed itself over the years, until more and more was expected of her, and she in turn began to need to serve Him. There was never a day when anything was signed or defined, per se...they just developed. He will say at a predestined and prescribed pace from His onset...however she was most certainly never aware.
The interesting thing is she still feels as extroverted, dominant and aggressive in personality as ever...with anyone, with the exception of Him. This is why she does not understand the frequent use of submissive/slave as interchangeable for it is not a personal truth. And while she often sees people say one can be submissive and not a slave...no one ever addresses the opposite...one can be a slave and not by nature a submissive or masochist et all. NO semantic games here..ofcourse as Master's slave the girl submits to Him...herein let "submissive" be defined as an inner being, or "personality type" not a verb. Thanks.

So...comments...answers to the initial question...

sabrina King

House of King

< Message edited by bottominwa -- 10/18/2004 8:20:43 PM >

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/18/2004 9:24:58 PM

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I believe that you can create a slave from a dominant personality. Look at a good number of slaves out there. They may occupy positions of great authority and to reach such positions, they displayed some form of dominance within their personality. The personas that we choose to share with the world are real, although, they may not be what we would have chosen, if we had been given the opportunity. Expressing our dominant or submissive sides of our personality is extremely liberating.

Take a look at "Power bottoms". Slaves who seem to posess a great deal of emotional, psychological and/or physical strength. One would not associate them with being slave at first glance, but the slave-persona still exists. Many power bottoms have gone through periods where they had thought they should follow the dominant path, only to find that they resonate more with the term slave. Many dominants have gone through a similiar process, beliving themselves to be submissive simply because they may be good at following orders or simply enjoy bringing happiness to others.

I don't think that our personality speaks for our inner beasties. Some of the best slaves I have ever encountered are ruthless, powerful women, while some of the best dominants I have met were truly concerned about the care, welfare and happiness of their slaves.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/18/2004 10:38:42 PM

slavewithnoname

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Touche` Sir

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~I do not submit as a slave because I feel weak or insecure... I do it because I am strong enough to be that free.~

(in reply to MrThorns)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/18/2004 10:43:10 PM

perverseangelic

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From: Davis, Ca
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Heck, I -am- a slave with a dominant personality type.

I'm the "leader" type. Y'know-extrovered, take charge, lead discussions, make plans, etc. etc. etc. even -with- my dominant partner at the appropriate times (like when he's not taking care of himself or eating and sleeping properly)

If I happen to mention that I am invovled in BDSM it is -always- assumed I am a top.

Nothin' doin'

But I do hate when people assert that I serve my partner out of a desire to escape the controll I have over my "normal" life. I don't see why it is impossible that someone just has the need to serve, unrelated to any other trait.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 12:07:50 AM

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I agree with Perverseangelic. My normal personality is very dominant. I am a leader, a trainer, and get put into management within any job I ever get in short order. Master uses that to his advantage in projects that he wishes me to help him with. Or the detail oriented way he wants his home run. I am not his slave to *escape* anything. I believe being strong, determined and not allowing others to deter me in anyway in doing what is needed part of being the slave I am, not a negative against it.

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 5:52:03 AM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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Midear Sabrina-

I do believe that the 'compensation theory' is a valid explaination of why many submit, and my own tastes run to those that seek a relief or balance from their high stress, powerful positions outside of their romantic relationships.

Outside of that, I did have a three year relationship with a women who was not submissive- by my definition- she did not have any deep rooted desire to submit to her partner, or to be dominated by him. She found this stuff interesting, and enjoyed it, but it didn't hit those deep levels of need and desire that for me, define a submissive.

She was certainly a strong, effective, and willful personality- and in most aspects of her life a natural leader. I've always thought that she was sort of a proto-Domme who just hadn't quite come to fullness- or perhaps she was vanilla, and just a good sport about the whole thing.

Yet still, she submitted to me- willingly, proactively, and with such good fatih and good will that I am still touched and amazed as I recall it these ten years later. She gave herself fully to please me, and this was something that I needed, and she saw no issue with being my slave.

I don't think I could have made a slave of her- but I'd say that she certianly did, and she did excel at it<s>.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 7:48:32 AM

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You aren't a dominant personality. If you are a dominant personality, you have no business being a slave, and you should stand up and be free. The ability to organize, and even lead, isn't unique to the free. A devoted slave on her master's business can very well take charge and get things done, and she'd better, if that is what her master expects of her. Similarly, a service orientation isn't unique to slaves. Some of the greatest leaders are very much service oriented.

You are missing a component of a dominant personality. The unbreakable desire for self-determination. The desire to be free, and choose your own path in life. You do not want to be free. You want a master. You can achieve anything that a free man or woman can achieve, equally as well, regardless of the nature of the task. The difference is that you are doing it at your master's direction, not your own. What you achieve, and what you become, will be for him. You are a slave.

Can you make a slave out of a dominant personality? Not consensually. They will always seek freedom, whereas the natural slave seeks his or her master. Being a Gorean girl, I'm sure that you've been schooled in these distinctions and know them well. I'm assuming that you were putting this out there so that others have a chance to consider what you already understand.

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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 11:58:57 AM

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Personally, I am a slave to my dominance.

Merc

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 1:13:58 PM

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Hello,

I am a firm believer in placing things in context.

Take person X. Person X is a Dominant personality who enjoys a reasonable standard of living in middle America and dabbles in on-line and real-time D/s, may even have a submissive.

Person X flies to Madagascar, plane crashes in the middle of the Sudan, person is found unconscious and ends up being sold into slavery. Through various means the person's will is broken and they become a slave personality.

One has taken a Dominant personality and made them a slave.

On a non-outlandish note, I think many people who claim loudly and emotionally that they are X may, in fact, have latent Y personality traits. For example, Jerry Falwell gave long dissertations on the evil sin of adultery to millions of people, while at the same time banging his secretary. One could say he was simply being deceitful, but I think the psychology is a lot more insidious; I think he was virulently opposing a personality trait he himself possessed and really wanted to create a world that would keep him from acting on his basic nature.

Just me, could be wrong, but there ya go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 2:18:46 PM

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Sinergy,

A real life example of your Madagascar reference has occurred before us all to frequently. I am referring to those kidnapped from all nations in Iraq kneeling in front of their captures awaiting beheading. It may not have the drawn out scenario of being broken after long captivity, but I doubt if any subjected to that humiliation weren't aware of their potential fate.
Although it is impossible and even egomaniacal to put myself in their place I think I would have been killed long before the cameras rolled. Not from my dominance, but from my refusal to be submissive. I've had enough experience, albeit with far less potential consequence to feel confident of that position. Knowing I would die anyway, I would die on my terms, not by the hand of some cowardly towel-head hiding behind a mask, posing for the camera. I don't think I'm unique. I am just as confident that many of the captured dead made that same decision.

As far as the dichotomy of fighting against the 'sin' you are most attracted; it's been a long held psychological theorem. But in the long term, it was proved false. The noted exceptions become news, but it turns out they were just that - exceptions.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 7:13:08 PM

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E/everyone,

The girl enjoyed very much the conversation that insued from the topic, and yes Master Leonidas You are ofcourse correct to an extent with respect to her intention. The girl had no intention in schooling anyone on anything she herself has been taught, however the distinction between innate slavery and submission...well she certainly understands. But most often on these boards she finds the question inverted or the term submissive used interchangeably with slave...and those who say one can be a submissive and not a slave...she just wanted to hear the reflection of the statement one can also be a slave and not at all submissive. Also the girl belongs to a Gorean house, she would not equate that to being Gorean. More akin to a kinapped woman of Urth...than a Gorean born slave Master Leonidas, that was her initial question really. Can one make a slave out of someone who is not a "born" submissive by American standards. And then does that mean the person had some deep buried biological desire to submit...or does it mean the Master is just skilled? Ofcourse the girl has been taught the Gorean mandate on the subject however her Owner encourages her quest for understanding of what purpose she serves...blanket acceptance of anything is lazy in His eyes. And ownership of who one is takes active participation, not just a doe glazed "yes, Master".

Thorns- Can You please describe what You mean by "power bottom" that term is completely foreign to this girl.

Lawrence- The distinction You make between a girl enslaving herself and You enslaving her this girl thinks is an important distinction in many relationships. Would You say that the pleasure You derived from having this girl was lessened because she made herself Your slave not by voition or driven desire? And how exactly does one make the distinction, this girl means to say if this girl was driven to please You in any means...then is that not submission? You make a very interesting aside and she would not mind at all hearing more of Your idea.

Merc- See now here is the rub, if this girl was in Iraq she would spit in the face of her captors and likely be killed immediately also...she has none of that beg for her life whatever it is either...and that is the central tenant to the perplexity of what she asked. she has certainly been in relationships years ago where men attempted to Dominate or assert themselves and she fought them tooth and nail and in the end left. So whatever it is that has girls placing ads at collarme to find a Master...she never had that...that internal drive to submit to anything...so she isn't sure that hootspa is equivalent to Dominance either. The girl has been nose to nose with a Brig. Gen. on more than one occassion as mayor of an army installation and nothing about His presence or status or stature, and He was most certainly a Dominant man made the girl want to submit to Him in the slightest....this is why she ponders the term of "born" submissive....she has never at any time, BDSM wise or otherwise been in any environment where she felt warm....even luke warm in a submissive fashion for any Dominant...except her Owner...so she most certainly isn't the elusive "born" submissive.

Sandy- Yes the girl was going to object to that notion also, she doesn't submit to escape from anything either and in truth submit is not perhaps the most applicable term. she serves her house.

perversangelic- Actually this girls doesn't get offended when that assertion is made anymore since it is relatively frequent...smiles...but she also disagrees with the general idea that one must be either a masochist or a "born" submissive to be a servant. And she has been sat at a Free table by a girl of a visting house, only to be promptly removed by her Owner. And out and about in nightlife she os often called all the colloquialisms...My Lady, Mistress et all....hehhehehe.

Thanks for humoring E/everyone We're past the half way mark...only 10 weeks to go there or abouts until Master returns from Iraq....so if Y/you could be kind enough to just keep a girl busy until then....it is greatly appreciated.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/19/2004 9:29:24 PM

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quote:

Would You say that the pleasure You derived from having this girl was lessened because she made herself Your slave not by voition or driven desire? And how exactly does one make the distinction, this girl means to say if this girl was driven to please You in any means...then is that not submission? You make a very interesting aside and she would not mind at all hearing more of Your idea.

Midear Sabrina-

This is a dust-bunny question! gray, fuzzy, hard to get a grip on...

To the first part of the question, I'd say yes, and no. Yes- I lost some of the pleasure of being good at what I do, of being able to hit all the little corner buttons in her pysche- and No, I was actually more impressed that this was something she did soley because I wanted it, without it filling a deep need in herself.

To the second part of the question- as I would use the terms- what she did was submission, but she was not a submissive.

I'd say wanting to please your partner is a trait not limited to submissives (one would hope), and that she was just more willing and proactive about it than most people might be- she also learned to sail, doing most of the bookwork on her own, though I doubt she continued to do it beyond our relationship (we've lost touch, but she didn't do it for at least the next four or five years after moving on).

I also believe that she did not seek out dominant partners after me- perhaps she ended up with one, but itlikely wasn't something she sought for. I'd say a submissive is someone who has the need to submit, to serve a dominant, as part of their core sexuality.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/20/2004 8:56:18 PM

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Lawrence,
Thanks again for putting in Your two cents, it is really interesting to this girl people's different perspectives. Personally, the girl would say she never felt compelled to submit to anything...and yet now...she is totally consumed with serving her house and would never want to imagine doing anything else....so has it become part of her core psyche...oh who knows...maybe she'll write and ask Dr. Phil...hehheheheh.

sabrina King

House of King

(in reply to topcat)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 10/21/2004 1:16:44 PM

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Sinergy,
Don't you think that someone forced into slavery might would do anything to stay alive? If it was submit or be killed, perhaps they chose life in the hope that they could one day escape.

As to your reference to Jerry Falwell, sometimes the things people howl about the most are things about themselves that they dislike.

And I agree with Merc. Even though I have a submissive nature, I'd never beg for my life or get in the car with a supposed kidnapper. I'd have to tell them kill me now, because I'm not going to beg and I'm not going anywhere with you.

_____________________________

Toodles,
dixiedumpling

My mind is no place to play alone. Anna Pigeon as written by Nevada Barr

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 11/1/2004 11:22:26 AM

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From: Portland oregon
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I maybe "asking" to be flamed here.
But in simple terms..
There are many types of "Dom" personalitys just as their are many types of "sub" ones.
One can be a sub to a Dom but also be more of a Dom themselves to another sub.
Some personalitys are just more "forceful" then others.This trait i feel is a born with type.

Yet while i may "respect" someones personaity as being stronger then mine will I allow that person to restrain me as I would a subbie.. NO it will not happen by my own "giving".
Could it happen by force or corrersion yes. I one thought of myself as a "switch" yet after experimenting as a "sub" with no safeword and a lot of trust some 5+ years ago I found that I was not a sub and I do not wish to be treated as one in any circumstance.
Nor will I ever find myself willingly restrained again.

Do I accept that there are "Doms" in this world who are more "domanant" then myself undoubtedly so.
Would I submit to another to protect one of my children, or someone that I cared about deeply YES without a hesitation. but I would not do so "freely".

If I had two subbies would I treat one better then the other. NO they are both equal. and would remain so Yet there maybe more reluctance to allow one to be 'over" the other. but that would depend on THEIR mindsets not mine.

There are many people in society that their "job's" and position require them to be a Domanant force in society. Some of these are Domanant by nature, Some are not and require the chance to beable to "give" themselves over to another in a Yin-Yang type of relationship. Without this Yin-Yang they will soon collapse in frustration.

_____________________________

Phil Moulton
A Sensual Touch
Locopony Racing
Portland Oregon

(in reply to bottominwa)

RE: flip flop...can one make a slave out of a Dominant ... - 11/1/2004 5:08:40 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

Personally, I am a slave to my dominance.

I merely submit to my role in the dynamic<g>.

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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