Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages.

Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 1:55:32 PM)
From today's NY Times ,a clerk in Ledyard NY( for the uninitiated that is basically bumfuck NY..lol)refuses to sign same-sex marriage licenses.Usually this does not pose an issue as their is a deputy in the office who issues these licenses by appointment. So,what seems quite predictable and inevitable a lesbian couple showed up last month without an appointment did not want to wait.This is a small town clerks office....with limited hours,nine per week. Basically the clerk feels she is protected by New York law...which " protects my right to hold both my job and my beliefs". The couple argue that the law requires all clerks in New York to provide marriage licenses to all couples...including same sex. Gov.Cuomo is on record as saying that clerks do not have the right to pick and choose which laws they will "enforce". again predictably both sides of this argument are being represented by advocacy groups representing the diametrically opposed POV's...as an aside I do wonder were these groups not to show up footing the bill for these legal challenges would folks be a bit more reasonable in their positions.

Marc2b -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:01:47 PM)
It is one thing if private businesses want to be stupid dicks and discriminate against their customers but government is supposed to serve all the people and government officials do not get to pick and choose which laws they want to respect. If this dimbulb jackass clerk doesn't like gays getting married... she can quit.

LaTigresse -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:03:17 PM)
I say 'fire the twat'. However......I am sure there is some union or something that is protecting her all the way to the grave.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:04:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b It is one thing if private businesses want to be stupid dicks and discriminate against their customers but government is supposed to serve all the people and government officials do not get to pick and choose which laws they want to respect. If this dimbulb jackass clerk doesn't like gays getting married... she can quit. What he said. Firm

Lucylastic -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:07:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b It is one thing if private businesses want to be stupid dicks and discriminate against their customers but government is supposed to serve all the people and government officials do not get to pick and choose which laws they want to respect. If this dimbulb jackass clerk doesn't like gays getting married... she can quit. What he said. Firm what they said, plus what LaT said

Hillwilliam -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:07:49 PM)
Probably a nice one week suspension covered by vacation time and then everything will be all hunky dory in their little bible thumping paradise.

joether -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:09:18 PM)
Sounds like the clerk is in the wrong line of work. If she hates homosexuals that much, why not get a job with one of the GOP candidates? Goverment clerks are there to handle tranactions between the goverment and the public. If this isn't thrown out in court in the beginning, the clerk will have a very tough battle. If one set of goverment employees can 'pick & choose' which laws they enforced/ignore, how about other goverment employees? I really dont see this as anything more than a trivial matter, and well below the court's time/energy dwelling on it.

windchymes -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:24:25 PM)
If the clerk's refusal to sign a marriage certificate for a gay couple is based on her religious beliefs, then that goes against the separation of church & state laws that we have, no? I see this as a precedent....you accept the job, you are required to sign ALL marriage certificates, please date and initial that you have read and understand this. If they won't sign, current employees can be reassigned to another position, new applicants won't get the job. Another example of someone twisting the constitution to suit their own needs.....and guarantee entry into heaven, lol.

Aylee -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:45:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Basically the clerk feels she is protected by New York law...which " protects my right to hold both my job and my beliefs". I will agree with her. She does get to have both her job and beliefs. She just does not have the right to advocate for those beliefs on the job. She needs to just suck it up and sign it. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b It is one thing if private businesses want to be stupid dicks and discriminate against their customers but government is supposed to serve all the people and government officials do not get to pick and choose which laws they want to respect. If this dimbulb jackass clerk doesn't like gays getting married... she can quit. What he said. Firm Or this.

slvemike4u -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:51:28 PM)
I agree with all of the previous posts.....but perhaps it went unnoticed in my first post.Mrs.Belforti(the clerk in question) is being represented by a Christian advocacy group based in Arizona ,the Alliance Defense Fund...which is arguing state law protects her religious beliefs. Meanwhile the lesbian couple are being represented by a liberal advocacy group,People for the American Way....so we have these two advocacy groups,who probably don't give a rats ass about any of the principals...but are determined to make their own points here.Abba cadabra,you have a test case and a battleground. Hell,the idea that this was all set up to happen,on the part of the liberal advocacy group is not beyond the realm of possibilities...all you need to do,once you choose which clerk with religious leanings you are going to go after...is send in a couple who does not mind being front and center....and ipso facto you got yourself a test case.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 2:59:17 PM)
quote: I say 'fire the twat'. How much do you want to bet that she would much rather you be the one deciding her fate than Hanners? Your way she retains the ability to sign things in the future.

LadyPact -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 3:11:39 PM)
From what you're seeing in the news reports, mike, is there a possible compromise? Maybe a transfer for this woman to some kind of other department where her interaction as a county employee doesn't mess with her religious beliefs?

kalikshama -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 3:14:19 PM)
I'd think the advocacy groups got involved afterwards, but cannot tell from the article http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/nyregion/rights-clash-as-town-clerk-rejects-her-role-in-gay-marriages.html

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 3:46:05 PM)
She says it's a matter of religious freedom, but since she herself isn't actually engaging in the sinful activity, nor actually facilitating it, wouldn't signing be covered by "render unto Caesar", "do unto others", "let he without sin cast the first stone" and "judge not lest ye be judged"?

LadyPact -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 4:04:11 PM)
From the article (thanks, kalikshama) there is an arrangement where this woman actually does step aside. Seems to Me this whole thing is going to get blown out of proportion because it boils down to........ They didn't want to wait for an appointment. I can't say I agree with this woman's beliefs, but I must agree with her right to have them.

thishereboi -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 4:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b It is one thing if private businesses want to be stupid dicks and discriminate against their customers but government is supposed to serve all the people and government officials do not get to pick and choose which laws they want to respect. If this dimbulb jackass clerk doesn't like gays getting married... she can quit. What he said. Firm what they said, plus what LaT said Yea, what Lucy said.

thishereboi -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 4:08:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: I say 'fire the twat'. How much do you want to bet that she would much rather you be the one deciding her fate than Hanners? Your way she retains the ability to sign things in the future. I agree, she has posted some of the things she like to do to you and she likes you. I can only imagine what she would do to someone she didn't like.[8D]

LanceHughes -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 4:16:58 PM)
The government (at any level) should NOT be issuing marriage certificates (nor the gloss of domestic partner registraions.) Never should have been issuing what is basically a religious document. BINDING contracts? You bet! Marriage licenses imply so many various "things" that are never spelled out. Let's get them ALL on paper, and then, if any two (maybe three or more) people wants to sign, so be it. Marilyn Murray-O'hara said it best <paraphrasing, now> "A marriage license is government approval to fuck." Once the sodomy laws were "down," of course the next step was for gays to seek government approval. 'Tis really quite simple, you see. Simply divide the "right" to fuck from the contratual obligations (child care, hospital visitng rights, survivor rights regarding pensions, wills, etc.) ETA: Yes, she said "fuck" in the original. She also used the example of a brother and a sister occupying the same home and having written contracts for all the implied obligations of marriage. What then does the marriage license "do"? Sure, the government's permission to fuck. Without that license, they are not allowed to fuck. The government won't issue it - probably for good reason. BUT do we know if the siblings are fucking? If no procreation - who gives a damn anyway?

LadyPact -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 4:26:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes The government (at any level) should NOT be issuing marriage certificates (nor the gloss of domestic partner registraions.) Never should have been issuing what is basically a religious document. BINDING contracts? You bet! Marriage licenses imply so many various "things" that are never spelled out. Let's get them ALL on paper, and then, if any two (maybe three or more) people wants to sign, so be it. Marilyn Murray-O'hara said it best <paraphrasing, now> "A marriage license is government approval to fuck." Once the sodomy laws were "down," of course the next step was for gays to seek government approval. 'Tis really quite simple, you see. Simply divide the "right" to fuck from the contratual obligations (child care, hospital visitng rights, survivor rights regarding pensions, wills, etc.) Unfortunately, My friend, we invited it. The minute that we said we can't be decent human beings when we dissolve a union, we invited the government right into the room. When too many messes needed to be cleaned up, there was nothing else to do.

LanceHughes -> RE: Rights collide as town clerk sidesteps role in gay marriages. (9/28/2011 5:06:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: LanceHughes The government (at any level) should NOT be issuing marriage certificates (nor the gloss of domestic partner registraions.) Never should have been issuing what is basically a religious document. BINDING contracts? You bet! Marriage licenses imply so many various "things" that are never spelled out. Let's get them ALL on paper, and then, if any two (maybe three or more) people wants to sign, so be it. Marilyn Murray-O'hara said it best <paraphrasing, now> "A marriage license is government approval to fuck." Once the sodomy laws were "down," of course the next step was for gays to seek government approval. 'Tis really quite simple, you see. Simply divide the "right" to fuck from the contratual obligations (child care, hospital visitng rights, survivor rights regarding pensions, wills, etc.) Unfortunately, My friend, we invited it. The minute that we said we can't be decent human beings when we dissolve a union, we invited the government right into the room. When too many messes needed to be cleaned up, there was nothing else to do. I think you are very mistaken. The right to marry / fuck was reserved to the Lord / Baron / King / Sheik, etc. There's a "strengthen the stock" component that has been with us since there WAS any type of over-lord. The religious component and the governemnt component have NEVER been far from each other. To this day, The Queen is head of the Church of England. And let's not forget its founding by Henry VIII who (to put it frankly) was tired of the Pope telling him (Henry) whom he could and couldn't fuck. I wonder who issues marriage licenses (if there is such a thing) in China.

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