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Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 10:44:46 AM   
SoulAlloy


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Wasn't sure where to put this but figured this was the closest spot, I had a search but couldn't seem to find anything on it recently.

I suffer from depression, it's no secret. I once had a discussion with a partner and she brought up the opinion that my more extreme fantasies were a symptom of depression in wanting to self-harm. Breathplay, water torture, being immobilised, that kind of thing.

I rejected the idea, though it is true that sometimes I crave that control being taken away and my limits pushed, usually when I'm stressed out. I know when I am depressed I am far less likely to resist anything, which has been seen as me being submissive.

Again I don't feel it is, the fact is I am far less likely to engage at all when depressed. But it has knocked my confidence somewhat. That sense of wondering what is 'you', and what is the influence of the 'depression'.

So I've rambled a bit, but I guess my main aim here is for thoughts, opinions, experiences and hopefully some ideas on how to distinguish the genuine thoughts from the depressed ones.

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 10:51:31 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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I am stoked to the gills on antidepressants, and have fought depression all my life.

When you are very depressed, you are not "submissive", you're apathetic. Things are happening, which is better than no thing happening, and struggling is too hard and will it matter anyway?

It's really alluring to want someone to come in and take care of everything so that you can go back to sleep/make a fort under the dining room table/whatever. Also not "submission".

The depression is part of who you are, and it is going to inform your decisions and how you feel about things IF you let it. It takes a lot of work and watching your patterns to know what's what. As long as you are not engaging in BDSM as a faux therapy, it's all good. Nothing in this "lifestyle" is going to fix you, it's just going to be a distraction, or an enhancement.

PM me if you want, I am happy to talk to you.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 11:08:30 AM   
SoulAlloy


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No I'm definitely not using BDSM as therapy, was tempted to see a pro once to see if it would help. 

I've had kinky fantasies long before my depression hit, didn't actually get the courage to explore it until afterwards though - it was one of those "what have I always wanted to do" moments - dived in, made mistakes but loved it.

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

Host of the Preston (UK) Munch, 2nd Wednesday each month

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 11:21:08 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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I didnt think you were, you just dont come across like one of those damaged folks looking for the Endorphin Cure!

I am one of those folks who has really been a Perv Since Birth, just didnt realize that it was a world of pervery or know what to call it until adulthood.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 12:00:34 PM   
samboct


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My rule of thumb is that if your fantasies don't impact your day to day life, they have no impact on your mental health. While your fantasies are often titillating to others, and can offer a point of contention, what we find hanging around these boards is that a lot of fantasies that we think are unique- well, aren't. So if someone has the same fantasies as you do, but isn't depressed, that kind of negates the connection between the fantasy and depression.

I think you're correct here- that your fantasies don't tie in with your depression. However, it is possible that being depressed, you looked for a way to get someone who cares about you out of your life (depression often leads us to push away the people that would make us feel better) and you used your fantasies to that end.

Its very hard to figure out what's constructive when your depressed. There is a healing power in a good love affair, but who can fall in love with someone who's depressed? Bit of a circular problem....

My rule of thumb- make no major decisions when depressed. Do the simple stuff, exercise, hang out with friends, get outside etc. A good shrink can help to, although finding one can be a bit challenging. I tend to avoid meds, but YMMV. For some folks, the best treatment is talk therapy combined with meds- but for depression, meds alone rarely suffice.

Cheers,

Sam

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 12:48:13 PM   
SoulAlloy


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Thanks

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

Host of the Preston (UK) Munch, 2nd Wednesday each month

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/21/2011 6:21:18 PM   
kalikshama


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I have to force myself to exercise when I'm depressed, and it never fails to help. I'd probably be even less likely to want BDSM, but I'm sure it would help too.

http://www.webmd.com/depression/recognizing-depression-symptoms/natural-treatments

1. Exercise. Study after study has found that physical activity can boost mood, says Cook. How much? You don’t need to run marathons to get a benefit. “It seems like half an hour several times a week may be enough,” Cook says. “More than that may not have a further effect on mood. There seems to be a plateau.”

The type of exercise you use as a natural depression treatment doesn’t seem to matter. “Your cardiologist might want you getting a lot of aerobic exercise for your heart,” says MacKinnon. “But for your mental health, just getting out and walking can be enough.”

2. Diet. There is no depression diet, but there are great benefits to healthy eating. “I don’t think there’s any particular dietary regimen you need to follow,” says MacKinnon. “A basic healthy eating plan should do.”

Nutrition is an important element in your effort to help treat your depression, MacKinnon says. “Healing from depression is a physiological process, just like healing from a physical injury,” he tells WebMD. He says that without good nutrition, medications for depression can’t work as effectively.

There are some other things to keep in mind. Ask your doctor if your medication might cause weight gain. If so, you may want to take special care with your diet. If your depression is associated with an eating disorder -- like anorexia or binge eating -- you need to be working with an expert.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/22/2011 4:50:44 AM   
Ninebelowzero


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Personally I don't see a correlation between kink & depression at all, but I'm only able to see inside my own head. I'm not being treated right now as I'm cool about life, I'm not cured I'm in remission. What sorted me out was finding manual work that consists of a 60 hr week. I'm too fucked to be depressed is the truth of the matter.
If we have a shut down for a week or so after a few days the black dog is there again but again there is no drive to be hurt or anything.

having said all that I know a wonderful single mum who is truly bi polar & she can't see how hot shit she really is, holding downa shitty job & raising a super kid. Every 6 months or so she drops off the edge & starts cutting away at herself.

I gues it's a case of how the dice lands as to how we all respond to the depression.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/22/2011 4:55:25 AM   
emilygagain


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Hi, my first post, head line caught my eye,

My perspective as a younger submissive. I suffer from anxiety quite Badly, and depression. I work, nice home etc, just feel down most of time,
I do have months where I feel fine ( thanks to ciprilex and diazepam )
I spend far more time on here and looking for ways to feel worse. When I'm down.

When I feel bad I want to feel worse, I don't know the psychology of that, but I think it is related.

I thought bdsm was a distraction from life, but on closer inspection. Maybe not

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/22/2011 9:41:16 AM   
strongbottom88


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This is an interesting question/thought. I have at times reflected on some similar issues, especially related to the sadomasochistic side of this. "Outsiders" will often see us in this type of light. It is just too alien to them. I am not clinically depressed (definitely a bit of existentialist depression at times, but not clinical) or atleast I have never been to such a degree that I have ever seen a therapist or taken an anti-depressant and I am assuming if I had serious depression issues I would have no choice but to. Nonetheless, I sometimes wonder why I love being exposed to pain and intense situations with women I trust to the degree I do especially since the pain/discomfort itself is, for the most part, not at all pleasant without the broader attraction/trust/power dynamic.

I am not only a fairly extreme masochist/bottom in bdsm play, but I also exercise religiously and have always been a bit of an adrenalin junkie and I am sure I can connect those things at some level to "self-medicating." The thing is , even more so I just love experiencing/doing them. I would say that I almost always have a struggle/fight urge in more extensive and rough play and it is the goal to have it driven out of me in a lot of scenes so I can't really relate to those moments of just accepting it and not resisting anything that you describe in your post.

I also know I have trouble really opening up in relationships and forming super-close bonds, and I am sure past experiences contribute to that. My strongest bonds have been formed in sadomasochistic relationships and no doubt, repeatedly trusting someone else with my life and safety does tend to allow me to feel much deeper levels of trust. I guess in that sense, bdsm can be seen as therapeutic. At the same time, it does not explain my deep attraction to sadistic and dominant streaks in women or to the power exchange in bdsm play. The deep trust is the ultimate payoff, but the attractions exist even without the payoff.

I would also suggest, that if you are a male sub/masochist/bottom, then that is another indicator you are attracted to this at some level much deeper than just due to your depression. The fact is we are going so against the grain of what we are generally socialized to do (be it as masochists giving up control, service oriented submission giving up authority or what have you) that there has to be a deep underlying attraction to this beyond escapism or giving up for us to feel the need to pursue it in any meaningful way.

I have read that there are kink-friendly therapists out there. If you have access, perhaps one of them could give you some input that would not be of the knee-jerk this is unhealthy type.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/22/2011 2:31:50 PM   
SoulAlloy


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Thanks for the good replies, I must admit I never found the exercise thing much help, but as my work is quite active perhaps it's that plateau thing. Diet is probably worth a go, mine isn't very good lol.

I found the second paragraph of sambocts post quite painful to read, but I appreciate the input all the same.

Emilygagain, I think I get what you mean, it's kind of a drive for catharsis, to release all those bottled up emotions and to purge the pain - tempted me in theory but I would never seek to get myself that way through BDSM, I feel it would colour my other experiences afterwards somehow.

Interesting thoughts strongbottom88, just for your info even in serious depression there is a choice, it's just more difficult to see the right one. That's my experience anyway, if you want me to elaborate drop me a message. I don't have problems with my basic kinks (the desire to submit and my masochistic tendencies), it's more the idea that the life threatening ones might be a quasi death wish. A counsellor would be a great help, just a case of waiting the for the nhs to put me through the other options first...

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

Host of the Preston (UK) Munch, 2nd Wednesday each month

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/22/2011 5:25:53 PM   
MistressLilliana


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First off I'd like to point out that depression is very common and effects everyone at one point or another and clinical depression effects most of the population. I have been diagnosed with depression and I see a therapist and he knows about me being in this lifestyle and sees nothing wrong with it. The only reason why he'd be concerned is if I were using it to be abusive towards myself, which I don't.

The person who said you enjoy pain because of your depression is mistaken. If that were the case, every person who enjoys pain is depressed and that isn't the case.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/23/2011 4:51:21 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

A counsellor would be a great help, just a case of waiting the for the nhs to put me through the other options first...


Where does the NHS like to start?

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/23/2011 5:16:55 AM   
submaleuk12


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Depression is a depression of emotion when your depressed your depressing a part of yourself, perhaps even not intentionall bit you got to work out what it is and deal with, if you do you may find you don't need bdsm anymore.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/23/2011 5:29:57 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

you got to work out what it is and deal with, if you do you may find you don't need bdsm anymore.


BDSM is a healthy expression of my sexuality, not self-harm.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/23/2011 5:39:39 AM   
SoulAlloy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

A counsellor would be a great help, just a case of waiting the for the nhs to put me through the other options first...


Where does the NHS like to start?


Well I can only speak for those who are treating me rather than the NHS as a whole. My first meeting he recommended medication first with a view to seeing if it will sort itself out, as the waiting list for counselling was 5 months. The meds helped for about a year then I expressed the desire to be put forward for counselling. He reluctantly put me forward, only to be told by the counsellors over the phone as my depression wasn't severe enough at that time they wouldn't see me.

Since then I've moved house to a different town and with a new set of doctors. This is two years on, first step on my depression spiking was to double my meds and see if it helped. It hasn't, so I went back and asked them for either different meds or counselling, preferably both. He said there was little point changing the meds and referred me to an 'in-house counsellor' at the surgery as this would result in me being seen within a month rather than 3 months. I went along, nervous and anxious about whether it would help, and whether I would click with the person.

I kind of feel I was set up for a fall then as the first words of the meeting were "I'm not a counsellor, I'm a Health worker that specialises in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy". It was disappointing, whether it was the doctor himself being misinformed I've no idea. But I am working with it and see if it helps. It's helped in some ways, mainly in organising myself and looking for patterns. Overall it hasn't had much impact yet, though I'm only 3 weeks into it.

_____________________________

"Better to be a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without" - Confucius

"It'll be alright in the end - if it isn't alright, it's not the end." - unknown

Kinky crossdressing Whovian

Host of the Preston (UK) Munch, 2nd Wednesday each month

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/24/2011 4:15:50 AM   
kalikshama


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I had CBT with a MSW last year and found it helpful with some life changes I was going through. I saw another social worker a few years previously that I found completely useless. I have health benefits with the US Veterans Administration's and they offer me counseling from time to time, as they do mammograms and flu shots.

Lance referred to this study on another thread:

Hormonal Changes and Couple Bonding in Consensual Sadomasochistic Activity

In conclusion, the present studies sought to examine the
physiological and psychological effects of consensual sadomasochistic
activity. Although the physiological reactions of
bottoms and tops tended to differ, the psychological reactions
converged, with bottoms and tops reporting increases in relationship
closeness after their scenes. These results, combined
with the displays of caring and affection observed in scenes,
offer support for the modern view of SM as an expression of
human sexuality that, when performed consensually, has the
potential to increase the intimacy between participants.

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/24/2011 8:22:16 AM   
DesFIP


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Actually exercise is only helpful for mild to moderate cases of depression. For severe, or suicidal, it does no good. And whoever said that meds alone don't help was again referring solely to mild to moderate cases. Severe forms respond to meds alone.

I was lucky, I saw my primary on a Friday, couldn't get in to see the psychiatrist until Monday. My primary started me immediately on Zoloft and by the time I saw the psychiatrist who was a specialist in genetic mood disorders, the suicidal ideation had lifted. That's meds alone making the difference. I was in therapy at the time and it did nothing to slow the slide into the suicidal ideation.

But the other thing here is that situational depression and genetic forms also differ. So someone who had a bad breakup and then got a new boss at work who is an abusive creep could well get situational depression which responds to talk therapy. Whereas someone with no situational problems who simply hit middle age and the hormone changes triggered the depressive state won't respond to talk therapy because no coping skills exist that will change your hormone levels.


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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/24/2011 8:50:49 AM   
LadyHibiscus


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Depression is genetic for me, I can certainly track it through members of my family. I missed out on the anxiety disorders!

I cannot begin to tell you how much I hate being on medication. It's not like I'm "cured" or anything. I am functional, though, and that matters. I've had some counselling, and got some good use out of it, though possibly not what the counsellors wanted! I wanted coping skills--and that's what I got, via my own efforts. It took a long time to break the patterns that were bad/harmful, and there are some I decided to hang onto.

Exercise for me has no effect. I also don't have endorphin reactions--and I have two complex tattos, so I know! I am not sure why I never get that buzz, but that's okay, I hate feeling impaired anyway!

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RE: Depression and BDSM - 10/24/2011 10:07:32 AM   
samboct


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To the OP

Perhaps a couple of points of clarification may help-

1) Your reaction to not being interested in BDSM when depressed is common if we consider BDSM just another expression of sexuality. People who are depressed have lower sex drive in general.

2) The use of extreme BDSM play as possibly being indicative of suicidal tendencies- sure- same as driving too fast, walking into a street without looking up, drinking excessively, etc. I don't view BDSM as indicative of depression- but like nearly any human behavior- when taken to extremes it can be problematic.

3) I wish I could be more helpful about finding a good therapist, but I know very little about how to go about it in the UK. You may find that going outside the system (is this even possible in the UK?) i.e. whipping out a checkbook, to be more useful than wasting time with inadequately trained people.

To DesFIP

Sorry, but strong disagreement here. I did some survey work in the area, so I know what got reported by well trained people. There are two major types of depression: situational, and call it "organic" for lack of a better term. Situational depression is caused by life- if you find yourself unemployed through no fault of your own, imprisoned, in a concentration camp etc.- there are all events that can lead to depression. (and depression lasts for months- it's not a day to day thing- that's mood.) There are also individuals who suffer from a physical illness that leads to them feeling unhappy regardless of circumstance- call this "organic". Causes are unknown- genetics can play a role. MRI's can pick this out. (Note- I don't distinguish between physical and mental illness- the brain is an organ of the body and has a variety of ailments- all of which have some physical basis.) Talk therapy has been shown to reduce these depressive signals- as have drugs. One of the problems in the field is the lack of standards to ensure qualified therapists- which often means that there are flawed studies which show that drugs are more effective than talk therapy- paid for by pharma companies, where the therapists qualifications are not examined or not rigorous. All too often, the depressive pathways figure a way around the drugs, much like cancer figures a way around chemotherapy, and the drugs lose effectiveness over time. Talk therapy by qualified people is more likely to have fewer relapses based on anecdotal evidence, but again, the science of depression is in its infancy, and there's a lot of unlearning to do.

Drugs may be more helpful in situational depressions- since if the person gets less depressed, the situation may resolve favorably. However, talk therapy has also been shown to work in these situations as well.

There are also clearly some recalcitrant cases where talk therapy is ineffective, and drugs are ineffective, and occasionally some variation on what used to be called electroshock therapy (EST) is used (now termed ECT for electroconvulsive therapy IIRC). What this shows is that depression is a complex disease, and that there are a variety of possible treatments. Since there is little/no science to suggest which treatment will benefit a particular individual, treatment options remain something of a trial/error process.

Sam

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