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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:26:37 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I don't think anyone in 2003 could have predicted that it would have gone on this long.
Actually a good number of them did, and were pooh-poohed by the cognoscenti.

quote:

Although, I think the focus fairly quickly turned to Al Quaeda and Bin ladin
Actually Greeds, that was the original focus, Iraq was the distraction.

p.s. I saw this and thought of you....





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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:27:03 PM   
MadAxeman


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'Afghanistan was caused by 9/11. They attacked us, so we attacked them back. '

By 'they' you mean millions of Afghani peasants?

Tell us how 'they' did that.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:27:39 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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I have never, ever, ever, called Heather "ignorant", "pigheaded" or "narrow-minded", or anything else along those lines.  So, it really isn't THAT interesting. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

And, since you have flounced off anyway, it really doesn't matter.
Very interesting. When she stays to debate things she's being ignorant, pig-headed, narrow-minded taking over the thread and insisting she's always right, yet when she doesn't stick around she has "flounced" off. Very interesting indeed.



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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:28:07 PM   
Arpig


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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:32:19 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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The other thing that I remember about the Iraq war was that at the time, the government and the media was INSISTENT that there were WMD.  This was W's biggest lie, and he told some whoppers.  Who could forget the Niger yellow cake fiasco?  To the extent that Americans did support that war, it was based on a faulty premise and the support largely ceased once they woke up and realized they had been duped.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:44:34 PM   
Arpig


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Well Heather is correct on the absolute numbers, but what she is missing is that those numbers represented a very soft support based on a lot of caveats. She is also missing the fact that a lot of the subsequent support was indeed of the "support the troops" variety.

One of the things I learned from my time doing surveys is that the question, and how it is worded, is as important as the answer. That and that Southron pollsters are devious bastards, some of the political polls we did for you guys were almost obscene they were so obviously slanted.


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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 12:49:09 PM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

'Afghanistan was caused by 9/11. They attacked us, so we attacked them back. '

By 'they' you mean millions of Afghani peasants?

Tell us how 'they' did that.


No, I wasn't referring to the peasants, but the government which was shielding Bin Laden and his cohorts. The terrorists had bases and training camps in Afghanistan, and since they were there, that's where the US military went.

Why would anyone not expect us to retaliate over the 9/11 bombings?

I worked with some Afghani immigrants who had lived under the Taliban. One of them was imprisoned for opening up a girls' school, which was against the law under that regime. But they got out, and they seem to be pretty happy to be in America now.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 1:04:47 PM   
GreedyTop


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great pic, Bob, thanks :)

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 2:43:03 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

The other thing that I remember about the Iraq war was that at the time, the government and the media was INSISTENT that there were WMD.  This was W's biggest lie, and he told some whoppers.  Who could forget the Niger yellow cake fiasco?  To the extent that Americans did support that war, it was based on a faulty premise and the support largely ceased once they woke up and realized they had been duped.
I've done further reading and it backs up what you say here, and it also backs up this
quote:

Well Heather is correct on the absolute numbers, but what she is missing is that those numbers represented a very soft support based on a lot of caveats. She is also missing the fact that a lot of the subsequent support was indeed of the "support the troops" variety.

Which leaves me only one option.



I was wrong to interpret the numbers in such an absolute manner, I should have paid more attention to the details and the surrounding events and "milieu" for lack of a better word. I'm sorry, and I'll try to remember not to do that again.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 2:46:45 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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This is why I never would call you ignorant, pig headed or narrow minded, Heather.  You are, emphatically, none of those things.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 4:57:56 PM   
MadAxeman


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9/11 wasn't a bombing.
It was a hijacking, which also wasn't organised by the Afghani government.
The Afghani government couldn't organise a picnic then.
Afghanistan as a nation doesn't exist. It is a collection of individual tribes under minor warlords.
The American sanctioned Afghani government in 'power' now could just about organise a day out at McDonald's.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 4:59:26 PM   
Sundowner


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[quote]ORIGINAL: Zonie63

1. Is it really that big a deal if Americans mistakenly call the country "England" as opposed to the UK or Britain?
Unfortunately yes it is - it suggests you haven't got a basic grasp of geography; many dim-witted or lazy or poorly educated Americans really don't have much idea of geography (I suppose it's such a struggle for them trying to work out the difference between Texas and California, let alone think about other parts of the world) and so it suggests you're dim-witted.

2. Are there still lingering resentments over the American Revolution? How do the British people today truly feel about that event?
No; many Brits struggle with history and are not sure who came before Margaret Thatcher, let alone trying to work out who Mr Pitt was and whether he was elder or younger; they think (in spite of those beautiful words "we hold these truths to be self-evident ...") the American Revolution was the American Civil War.

3. In relation to question 2, do British people feel that Monarchism is superior to Republicanism?
Sheesh - the one thing we do well is ceremonial, partly because we can trace bits of it back a few hundred years, and our ceremonial (the good bits) tends to float around the Monarch (did you spot that little wedding between William and a charming young lady recently?) And I think many ppl felt it was better to have an elected head of state than one who just happened to be born into it and then along came your nice Mr Bush.

4. Do English, Irish, and Scottish people really hate each other that much? Or is it more akin to a friendly rivalry nowadays (just like Red Sox and Yankees fans razzing each other)?
I really don't know.

5. What is the common British view about America, as a nation? Are we still a colony in British eyes, some kind of estranged, prodigal son? In America, we sometimes refer to England as our Mother Country, but I was just wondering if that view is shared in the United Kingdom.
You're that funny place where the ppl are far more religious than in most European countries (Europe is that large bit to the right of the UK), where most of the population eats so much they're not fat, they're obese, where you call a garden a yard (how dreadfully common), where your Wall Street banking community was so dishonest, greedy and corrupt, and your government was so inept at doing anything about greed and dishonesty, that the world's financial community thought it was ok to behave like that and look where the world is now, where the office of President, regardless of incumbent (apart from Carter), is so wonderfully well endowed with status that it's a shining example of how to structure a hierachy, where the people so often seem to be so very polite to strangers, where many of the world's standards start first (I'm not sure I can forgive you for banning smoking), where the armed forces seem to think one can fight by shouting a lot and just don't get it that most of the civilised world's armies laugh at yours and where you get excited watching ppl play rounders. There's more of course but I think it's generally what one thinks about one's friends - there are good bits and silly bits but hey, they're friends aren't they? I don't think ppl think of you as colonists.

6. In relation to question 5, do the British still view nations like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand as still "British," even though they are independent now? In other words, do they feel a closer relationship because they parted amicably and peacefully, whereas America's independence was not peaceful.
Yes; I don't think they rudely tipped any tea overboard or had a fight with us; and I think you may find our Queen is still slightly tied in with one or two of them on some sort of constitutional basis.

7. In some of the forums I referred to above, I've encountered Australians who seem to be against both Britain and America. For historical reasons, such as the Revolution, the War of 1812, 54-40 or fight, etc., I can see why Canada and the UK might still be mad at us, but what on Earth did we do to the Australians to earn their wrath? That's what I understand the least.
Don't worry, everyone thinks the Australians are just a bit odd; they got left out of living in the civilised part of the world.

8. How do the British feel about America's role in the World Wars? (I'm thinking of what they said as U.S. troops started arriving in Britain, "They're oversexed, overpaid, and over here," while they said the British were "undersexed, underpaid, and under Eisenhower.")
I think most people think you arrived a bit late both times; it would be invidious to suggest that was because there wasn't much oil in Germany. (And what MadAxeMan said about the Russians).

Anyway, I might have more questions as they come up.
Thanks for your patience. I think on balance we think you speak rather gratingly at times and have no grasp of English grammar but really we quite like you. I think when those rather unpleasant uncivilised people flew planes into your tall buildings we generally felt the pain and sympathy usually reserved for people one loves.

[/quote]




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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 5:01:35 PM   
Lucylastic


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Some do:) thank god

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 5:21:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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FR

There comes a time when all children are ready to fly the nest, for good or for ill.

I'm sure I join with all the Brits here in saying that the Americans have done *very well indeed* Hoorah! :-)

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/14/2011 7:25:44 PM   
MadAxeman


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They're toddling now, bless 'em.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/15/2011 7:35:16 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

9/11 wasn't a bombing.
It was a hijacking, which also wasn't organised by the Afghani government.


Semantics. The airplanes were intentionally used as bombs, so it would most definitely constitute a "bombing."

quote:

The Afghani government couldn't organise a picnic then.
Afghanistan as a nation doesn't exist. It is a collection of individual tribes under minor warlords.


I don't see this as relevant. The criminal terrorists who masterminded the bombing existed within the geographical boundaries of the place on most maps known as "Afghanistan." If their government can't organize things or manage the affairs in their own country, that's really beside the point. If anything, it made the US invasion more imperative, since there was no actual government we could deal with.

I don't get your position here. Are you saying that the US should not have retaliated over 9/11? Should we have just laid down and let it go? Please explain.


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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/15/2011 8:41:42 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sundowner

Unfortunately yes it is - it suggests you haven't got a basic grasp of geography; many dim-witted or lazy or poorly educated Americans really don't have much idea of geography (I suppose it's such a struggle for them trying to work out the difference between Texas and California, let alone think about other parts of the world) and so it suggests you're dim-witted.


There seems to be some difference of opinion on this, based on the answers I've seen thus far. Some have said that it's no big deal, while others say that it is.

As I said in my OP, I think most Americans do so out of habit than anything else. I won't deny that a lot of Americans have a poor knowledge of geography, although it doesn't seem applicable in this case. My sense, from the answers that I've gotten thus far, is that this is more a political/national issue internal to the UK than a geographical one.


quote:


No; many Brits struggle with history and are not sure who came before Margaret Thatcher, let alone trying to work out who Mr Pitt was and whether he was elder or younger; they think (in spite of those beautiful words "we hold these truths to be self-evident ...") the American Revolution was the American Civil War.


I knew that there were a lot of Americans with a poor knowledge of history, but I didn't realize this was also the case with Brits. Of course, I would take it on a case by case basis, since I've also known many Americans and British who are quite knowledgeable of history, so there are always exceptions.

However, I do tend to notice that a lot of criticisms about America seem largely based on a very selective reading of history, while certain key facts are wantonly ignored.



quote:

Sheesh - the one thing we do well is ceremonial, partly because we can trace bits of it back a few hundred years, and our ceremonial (the good bits) tends to float around the Monarch (did you spot that little wedding between William and a charming young lady recently?)


Yeah, I did notice that. There was a great deal of hype in the US media about that. There are a number of Americans who just adore royalty, but I usually just roll my eyes at that stuff.

quote:


And I think many ppl felt it was better to have an elected head of state than one who just happened to be born into it and then along came your nice Mr Bush.


Yes, but the nice thing about the Presidency is that you know there will be a limited term. That makes a big difference.





quote:

You're that funny place where the ppl are far more religious than in most European countries (Europe is that large bit to the right of the UK),


I wouldn't doubt that we're more religious. In my own family history, my ancestors left the Netherlands to come to America because they thought it was getting too permissive. On the other hand, because we've had Freedom of Religion, people don't fight over it near as much as they have over in Europe.

quote:


where most of the population eats so much they're not fat, they're obese,


Yeah, that's a problem, too. But at least we're aware of it.

quote:


where you call a garden a yard (how dreadfully common),


Huh?

quote:


where your Wall Street banking community was so dishonest, greedy and corrupt,


And the City of London is not?

quote:


where the people so often seem to be so very polite to strangers,


What's wrong with being polite to strangers?

quote:


where many of the world's standards start first (I'm not sure I can forgive you for banning smoking),


Well, I'm a smoker, and I can assure you that smoking hasn't been banned. It's just more restricted and more heavily taxed, sometimes ridiculously so, but that would be another topic in and of itself.

quote:


where the armed forces seem to think one can fight by shouting a lot and just don't get it that most of the civilised world's armies laugh at yours and where you get excited watching ppl play rounders. There's more of course but I think it's generally what one thinks about one's friends - there are good bits and silly bits but hey, they're friends aren't they? I don't think ppl think of you as colonists.


Well, sure, I guess there are things that Americans say about Brits (or anyone else in the world), so it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

A lot of it is just plain silliness, but I get it. It's just like the old Polish jokes people used to tell but have now become politically incorrect. Now, it's American jokes, since we have such a great sense of humor and can take a joke. I only wish that other countries and nationalities were as light-hearted as we were. There'd be a lot more peace in this world.

quote:

Yes; I don't think they rudely tipped any tea overboard or had a fight with us;


So, does this confirm that there is still lingering resentment over the American Revolution?


quote:

I think most people think you arrived a bit late both times; it would be invidious to suggest that was because there wasn't much oil in Germany. (And what MadAxeMan said about the Russians).


I've addressed both of these points extensively in earlier posts.



quote:


(And why oh why can't you chaps understand the British sense of humour?)


Well, I understand it most of the time, although there might be local references I may not have been initiated to, not having lived in the UK.

Apart from that, many of our favorite rock bands happen to be British, and British actors seem to be rather popular in Hollywood. I've met a number of Brits who live out here in the USA, and I find them to be very affable and likable. They seem to love America very much, too.

That's part of the reason why I first posted, since I can't seem to reconcile these nice, pleasant British people that I meet in real life and who seem to love America, as opposed to some of the internet personalities I've encountered who sound like they could be propagandists for the Iranian government. I was just trying to determine whether it represents the mainstream view or if it's just a very vocal minority.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/15/2011 9:08:46 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

1. I am of Scottish and Northern Irish decent but was born and live in England and so I am from the United Kingdom (UK for short). I live in England, not Britain, meaning I don't live in Scotland or wales. Great Britain (Britain / British) doesn't include Ireland and so I refuse to call myself British. Scottish people say they live in Scotland and Welsh people say they live in Whales.
Personally I don't like the word 'British'


I see that there is a wide variance of opinion on this.

I remember something similar when I visited the Soviet Union decades ago. The tour guides would constantly correct people who said "Russia" or "Russian" when they should have said "Soviet." They went out of their way to make that distinction.

quote:


4.You forgot Wales in that question and you mention Ireland as a whole. Did you mean Northern Ireland? and yes I think there is a general dislike towards each other. There are parts of Wales, Scotland and northern Ireland where you won't be welcome if your English but all of those people tend to be welcome in the UK.


I don't really know much about Wales. However, when I was reading a thread about the discussion of the movie Braveheart, the issue was brought up regarding friction between Scottish and English people. Likewise, in other discussions, I've read some rather heated arguments about Ireland, which seem indicative of a very long-term, deep-seeded hatred. I've had a cursory knowledge about the troubles over there, but I was under the impression that most of that had subsided by now.

quote:


7. From what my grandparents told me, the Americans were very much welcomed into the UK during world war 2. My grandmothers sister married an American GI and went to live in NY after the war. From the sound of it a lot of UK women found American husbands and that may of caused some resentment amongst our men.


Yes, my sister-in-law's mother was English who married an American who served in the UK during WW2. I have a few friends with similar backgrounds.


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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/15/2011 9:40:00 AM   
MadAxeman


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Retaliation intrinsically implies hitting back.
Afghanistan didn't hit the World Trade Center.

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RE: Questions for those in the UK (and elsewhere in the... - 11/15/2011 10:00:56 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

Retaliation intrinsically implies hitting back.
Afghanistan didn't hit the World Trade Center.


Then who did?

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