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How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:16:13 PM

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A question came up today. The question that i put in the subject line. A Dominant friend and i were talking about His slave and He made the statement that He couldn't change her in a certain regard. That regard had to do with part of who she is at the core of her being. So that brought this question to mind.

Just how much can a Master change a slave? Can He or She change the core of who a person is? Should He or she try?

i know that i have posted this in the Ask a Master forum, however i am interested in the view points of s-types as well. How much has your Master or Mistress changed who you are? Have any of those changes been to the core of who you are as a person or just some behaviors if any? Would you want to be changed at the core of who you are?

Thank you in advance for your replies,
heartfelt

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:19:42 PM

searching4mysir

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If my Master wanted to change the core of who I am then he isn't the Master for me. Why take me on if he doesn't like the person I am?

Yes, Master trains me in my disciplines/service, but he loves the woman I am at my core.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:23:50 PM

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Thank you for your reply. What if you had a behavior that came from the core of your personality, and that behavior was hurting your life, is that something that you would want help changing? i didn't mean changing one's personality, but changing some aspect of it.

For example, and this is not the case here, i am just giving a for instance, what if a slave has an addictive personality. Do you think that is something that his or her Master should try to change or control?

Thank you again,
heartfelt

*edited because i can't type

< Message edited by heartfeltsub -- 11/19/2011 4:39:06 PM >

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:28:52 PM

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That's a really interesting question!

I can't honestly answer it from the perspective of master/slave, as this isn't the dynamic I look for, or one that I've had.

But as the dominant in a d/s relationship, yes, I'd want to help my sub change a behaviour that was harmful to her, but I wouldn't want to transform her - Like searching4mysir, part of me thinks - well if you'd want to change a ton of things, why would you enter into a relationship in the first place?

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:33:57 PM

searching4mysir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

For example, and this is not the case here, i am just giving a for instance, what is a slave has an addictive personality. Do you think that is something that his or her Master should try to change or control?

Something that serious seems to be something that the slave would need professional help for. Yes the Master/Dom can be supportive and encouraging in the change, but the goal is mental and physical health, not really changing the person she is.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:35:16 PM

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Thank you for your reply. The question did not come about because of "lots" of things "needing" to be changed, but rather one thing. Thank you again for your reply.

heartfelt

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Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:36:03 PM

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How much can a master change a slave? With proper brainwashing technique anything is possible....

How much should they change their slave -- That is something that should be agreed upon at the start of the relationship. Can the master change personality traits, behavior patterns, likes and dislikes, habits. That is something that should be agreed upon up front, at least in generalities if not details.

Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave, and to some extent that does include parts of the personality - training desired habits, helping with self-destructive ones, etc.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 4:38:05 PM

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Thank you MikeSojourner for your reply. i appreciate you giving me your point of view.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 5:29:12 PM

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Short of brainwashing, you can't change someone else. Change only occurs when that person wants to change. You can help someone change, but you can't change them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner
Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave,

Personally, I've always found that view offensive.

I'm not some broken little girl that can't get my crap together and needs direction just to function. Just because you've labeled yourself as a dominant doesn't mean that you're in a position or even qualified to improve me.

A relationship is a two way street. We support each other in our desires to improve ourselves, but neither one of think we're so special and sparkly that we can decide and impose "improvement" on the other.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 5:46:57 PM

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You are right Osidegirl, you can not force someone to change. However if they are open to your ideas and doing what you want, you can make suggestions that will make them improve as you think they need to improve. Even here, there is the fact that while they might improve in your eyes, they might go backwards in someone else's eyes.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 5:50:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

A question came up today. The question that i put in the subject line. A Dominant friend and i were talking about His slave and He made the statement that He couldn't change her in a certain regard. That regard had to do with part of who she is at the core of her being. So that brought this question to mind.

Just how much can a Master change a slave? Can He or She change the core of who a person is? Should He or she try?

i know that i have posted this in the Ask a Master forum, however i am interested in the view points of s-types as well. How much has your Master or Mistress changed who you are? Have any of those changes been to the core of who you are as a person or just some behaviors if any? Would you want to be changed at the core of who you are?

Thank you in advance for your replies,
heartfelt

Depending on what someone wanted to change, it could be possible. However, making that change could result in that person changing in other ways... and not necessarily for the best.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 5:54:25 PM

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"A man's a man
Is Herr Brecht's contention
But that is something
that anyone might mention,
So Herr Brecht appends this item
to the bill:
that you can do with a human being
what you will.

"You can take a man apart like an automobile
And it's a process he won't even feel.

"You can look at a fellow
One man to another
and politely but firmly tell him,
Brother,
get used to this world as it is
And let rot
that fish you planned to boil in your private pot

"You now will see the ground beneath your feet
Melt away like sleet.

"And please don't miss the moral of the case:
That this world is a dangerous place."

------------

I'm essentially saying I'm in agreement with Mike Sojurner. With the right techniques and knowledge, anything that a human being is, thinks, or does can be changed. Not all masters or mistresses have this such skills and knowledge, obviously, or want it. Should he or she try? If we're really talking about a master-slave relationship consensually entered into, and not a dom-sub one masquerading as a master-slave relationship, then that's entirely up to the owner of the slave, I would think. I place no moral weight upon this one way or the other.

"How much has your Master or Mistress changed who you are? Have any of those changes been to the core of who you are as a person or just some behaviors if any? Would you want to be changed at the core of who you are?"

I don't mean to sound critical here, but I am having trouble answering these questions. The word "core" is stopping me. A "core" of a human being is one of those emotionally-laden but highly vague words that is very difficult to pin down even though we all imagine we know what it means. What you might consider part of your core might be something I consider part of my false surface personality which has no bearing on who I really am. And vice-versa, most certainly! Can you define this term a bit more specifically?

I can say a little about this. Each of my masters has changed me in fundamental ways. Behaviors, attitudes, beliefs, habits, physical appearance, even personality traits have been changed. To date, however, (and I believe this is an important point to consider if we want to avoid rolling off the hysterical emotional edge when discussing such a laden term such as "cores,"--you are doing fine, btw, I'm speaking of what I expect to see posting after you) the thing that has changed my personal core identity the most has been life circumstances which were not consciously caused by any human being. People are part of their environments and they are sensitive to them. That sensitivity causes changes, sometimes profound ones. So, should I try to sue life or charge it with criminal negligence for successfully and most nonconsensually changing my core self? ;-) Of course not, but I'm certain some pontificating moralists who are not very deep in the thinking department will probably say so about masters. It would be very nice to be proven wrong about this, but in this place... well, let's just say I'm not holding my breath.

Here's the question that interests me: Why should someone consciously and deliberately entering into a master-slave relationship as a slave think that it is immoral for their master and owner, the one they have supposedly given all of themselves to, to effect changes in them similar to what plain old life brings about?

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 5:56:04 PM

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Has nothing to do with Master/slave, Dom/sub, or anything else concerning the Power Dynamic.

Thus, as with any pairing, be they of the Vanilla or BDSM ilk, it depends on the people involved.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 6:33:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply. What if you had a behavior that came from the core of your personality, and that behavior was hurting your life, is that something that you would want help changing? i didn't mean changing one's personality, but changing some aspect of it.

For example, and this is not the case here, i am just giving a for instance, what if a slave has an addictive personality. Do you think that is something that his or her Master should try to change or control?

Thank you again,
heartfelt

*edited because i can't type

Ok, I see you are quite intentionally avoiding what that actual *one* thing was, which isn't very helpful.

As to your example, if someone has an addictive personality, typically one finds out because they had an addiction. A master isn't a therapist, nearly all are ill equipped to do these things regardless of how much they think they can or should.

Someone with addictions needs to change themselves, no one can do it for them, and I have to tell you that discipline and control from a partner is not only incapable of "changing" their addiction problem, it is going to make it worse.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 6:46:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

I'm essentially saying I'm in agreement with Mike Sojurner. With the right techniques and knowledge, anything that a human being is, thinks, or does can be changed. Not all masters or mistresses have this such skills and knowledge, obviously, or want it. Should he or she try? If we're really talking about a master-slave relationship consensually entered into, and not a dom-sub one masquerading as a master-slave relationship, then that's entirely up to the owner of the slave, I would think. I place no moral weight upon this one way or the other.

Always great to start out with the whole "true" way of doing things. It makes not a bit of difference if you think people are "masquerading" as M/s. Thankfully, the people in the relationship define what they view their relationship as, not you as an outsider.

quote:

I'm certain some pontificating moralists who are not very deep in the thinking department will probably say so about masters. It would be very nice to be proven wrong about this, but in this place... well, let's just say I'm not holding my breath.

Good to know you think you are the only qualified/knowledgeable person here. You really know how to win over people.

quote:

Here's the question that interests me: Why should someone consciously and deliberately entering into a master-slave relationship as a slave think that it is immoral for their master and owner, the one they have supposedly given all of themselves to, to effect changes in them similar to what plain old life brings about?

They aren't the same kind of changes that life brings about to a person. People change from marriage, birth, death, career change, various tragedies or successes. If you honestly believe that a master has control of that, forget pontificating, you are delusional.

The point all of all the "moral pontificating" is that a master shouldn't choose a slave based on what they will become under his (oh so skillful) guidance. Rather, a master should choose a slave based on the person the slave his. The whole "breaking down so I can build them up" line is nothing more than that. A line of crap. There is not one dominant/master who has EVER posted on this board who was even remotely qualified to "break someone down."

A sub/slave, as Oside said, is not some broken little thing that needs fixing. It is a person, whether you view it as property or not. If you don't like who the person is, why in the world would you want to own them, unless you are one of those people who erroneously believes it is your "job" as master to "change" the people you are involved with.

(in reply to aromanholiday)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 7:23:30 PM

HeatherMcLeather

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At first I was going to say an unequivocal yes, I am a vastly different person than I was a year ago and it is entirely due to Hanners' influence. But then I got to thinking about it, and I realized that nothing about the core of me, nothing about who I am has really changed, just how I present that person has.

She has awakened feelings and aspects of myself that I was unaware of before, but she did not instill them. She saw them and showed them to me. She saw me as a much stronger person than I thought I was, and has patiently showed me again and again that I was. She did not make me stronger, she showed me that I was, and that gave me the confidence to be that person. The more I think about it, the less I see it as a molding, and the more it seems an awakening or education.

And that to me makes it all the more magical.

So my "yes" has to change to an "I don't know, maybe."

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/19/2011 7:41:02 PM

lizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

At first I was going to say an unequivocal yes, I am a vastly different person than I was a year ago and it is entirely due to Hanners' influence. But then I got to thinking about it, and I realized that nothing about the core of me, nothing about who I am has really changed, just how I present that person has.

She has awakened feelings and aspects of myself that I was unaware of before, but she did not instill them. She saw them and showed them to me. She saw me as a much stronger person than I thought I was, and has patiently showed me again and again that I was. She did not make me stronger, she showed me that I was, and that gave me the confidence to be that person. The more I think about it, the less I see it as a molding, and the more it seems an awakening or education.

And that to me makes it all the more magical.

So my "yes" has to change to an "I don't know, maybe."

For most people I think things happen in the manner that Heather has suggested, more of molding/awakening process than a changing one. I think the people that we are with do emphasize certain traits that we have to begin with, while other traits that aren't as valued by that person or used when you are with them, fade more into the background. I don't really know if it's possible to change the core of you at another's behest, but I'll be curious to see how this thread plays out.

This molding process is why I think it's so important to choose the right partner. I always say that when you have the right person at your side, the two of you make more together than you do alone; plus, another side of that same idea, is that you are a better person with them, and because of them. The influences that you have on each other are positive, and make you feel better about yourself, because the other person is someone you genuinely admire and look up to. Because you feel that admiration, the personal journey in becoming more like them, or more appealing to them, makes you feel better about yourself.

(in reply to HeatherMcLeather)

RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/20/2011 12:53:18 AM

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I think sometimes a person can have things "at the core" that are negative and destructive. A D-type can inspire you to change those things, but the work of changing is up to you. If the D says "don't do that," you still have to obey, and sometimes simply obeying isn't so easy if it's something you really want.

But at the same time, as was said earlier, D-folks aren't therapists. They're not super heroes and they're not gods with crystal balls. I think sometimes people go into relationships expecting that the D is going to assume control and remodel and remake them from a pile of dirty laundry into a model, upstanding citizen. I don't really think that's a D's job, though it can be if s/he wants to make it so.

I agree with Heather about the idea that, in a lot of cases, it's not really the deep-down you who has changed but the way you feel able to express "you." I changed a boatload from before I met my late M until after. And lizi is right that it's pretty crucial to pick well -- pick someone who you can have faith in to not lead you off over the edge of a cliff. =p
But he saw things in me that I denied, he took things that I pushed down or was afraid of and made them normal and natural and wonderful. Those things were there, they just had to be redefined.

I do believe, though, that who you are at the core is something that does evolve and change. We are constantly evolving You take experiences and information and melt them back into yourself, like tectonic plates. So I do think that a D can have an effect on what experiences and information you assume back into yourself. I also don't necessarily think that changing something at the core is always a sign of "not liking you for who you are."

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 11/20/2011 1:19:46 AM >

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/20/2011 3:54:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

At first I was going to say an unequivocal yes, I am a vastly different person than I was a year ago and it is entirely due to Hanners' influence. But then I got to thinking about it, and I realized that nothing about the core of me, nothing about who I am has really changed, just how I present that person has.

She has awakened feelings and aspects of myself that I was unaware of before, but she did not instill them. She saw them and showed them to me. She saw me as a much stronger person than I thought I was, and has patiently showed me again and again that I was. She did not make me stronger, she showed me that I was, and that gave me the confidence to be that person. The more I think about it, the less I see it as a molding, and the more it seems an awakening or education.

And that to me makes it all the more magical.

So my "yes" has to change to an "I don't know, maybe."

This.
And to add to it, he supports and encourages my positive attributes and we work together to try and change the negative ones when they rear their ugly head occasionally. He has made me become much more aware of the triggers for me that precede the negative anger because they are extremely detrimental to our relationship and have almost killed it more than once.
On the flip side, I'm lucky enough to be able to do the same for him. He has said that he is a much better person since having me in his life. He's better at work, he's happier. I'm also supportive of him and help him through hard times that are a result of negative aspects of him.
I think it only works though if someone wants to make changes. Force will have no effect at all.

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RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? - 11/20/2011 4:39:33 AM

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I can change her as much as she will allow it. For example, Tasha is about to quit smoking. She knows it's bad for her and that I hate it. I doubt she'd quit if it were not for my influence and disapproval.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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