RE: Cheap Bastards!!!!

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tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 8:20:51 PM)
You do realize tipping is optional? Even when its mandatory, you can complain and it will magically disappear? quote: The person who makes my coffee at Dunkin Donuts is providing me with a very much needed service, as are the people who deliver my mail, fill my prescriptions, ring up my groceries, and dry clean my clothing. Of which, with maybe the exception of one, are not allowed to accept a tip. quote: It smacks more of contrived political correctness than a fair business transaction. Perhaps you can go into a bit more depth on this one. quote: I can't believe that it would be expected that I, the consumer, would be personally responsible to make up for salary and benefit shortcomings on the part of the employer for any single worker. And yet you are. You also arent looking at the flip side of that equation. So far, all we have spoke about is salary. Lets not get into benefits.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 8:37:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr I used an address that's the exact same distance from the Pizza Hut than I currently live from Dominos. Actually, I realized I was being a dumbass, because while we don't have Domino's in Belgium we do have Pizza hut in the US. So on the EXACT SAME ORDER: 8 chicken wings 1 medium deep pan pizza with 3 toppings 2 liter coke The Belgian price: $28.85 The American price: $23.41 + $4.60 tip = $28.01 Imagine that, Pizza Hut is slightly more expensive than Dominos. It may be because of the difference in wings and soft drinks, it may be because Pizza Hut counts a $2.25 delivery charge while Dominos only charges $1.50 for delivery. Either way, on the exact same order Pizza Hut Belgium is $0.84 more expensive than Pizza Hut US. Yeah you're right DarqueMirror, the Belgian business model of not expecting the driver's wages to be dependent mostly on tips will never work. Oh, as a side note, another thing I forgot to do in my previous calculation is mention that Belgian drivers don't use their own cars. They use company vehicles and company payed gas.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 8:53:35 PM)
Do you believe the cost is the same to the company?

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:02:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Do you believe the cost is the same to the company? I have no idea, you'd have to contact Pizza Hut's headquarters to be sure on it. If I'd have to make a guess, I would say that the American Pizza Hut's profit margins may be higher than the Belgian one, though I don't think the difference would be that dramatic. If you want, I can do a couple other comparisons between Belgian prices and American ones on other areas where tipping in common in the US. It may give a better perspective on what the differences would be, and how it may affect company profit margins.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:12:43 PM)
In order to make a comparison between the two countries, you would also have to compare the costs associated with making the item, gas prices, wages at a minimum. otherwise, the numbers are not that meaningful. For example.. in 2004, according to this site... http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm The minimum wage in EU for Belgium is 1210. Converted to US dollars, 1,600 thats 400 a week, and the company pays their drivers gas and provides autos. If they did that here, they would have the cream of the crop of drivers. Here, they make at the most 300 a week, then get reimbursed 50 cents a mile. They would have to drive 200 miles a week to make up the difference. Then the wear and tear on their personal autos... All I can say is.. be thankful there are still delivery drivers.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:28:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl In order to make a comparison between the two countries, you would also have to compare the costs associated with making the item, gas prices, wages at a minimum. otherwise, the numbers are not that meaningful. For example.. in 2004, according to this site... http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm The minimum wage in EU for Belgium is 1210. Converted to US dollars, 1,600 thats 400 a week, and the company pays their drivers gas and provides autos. If they did that here, they would have the cream of the crop of drivers. Here, they make at the most 300 a week, then get reimbursed 50 cents a mile. They would have to drive 200 miles a week to make up the difference. Then the wear and tear on their personal autos... I agree, to compare absolutely would be near impossible. If for no other reason than that you'd have to go through the entire tax, social security and health care law of both countries. Especially considering that health care is nationalized in Belgium, and full (better than the US in my personal opinion) dental and health care coverage is available at a cost of about $40 a year (not considering taxes) for every Belgian citizen. I have the feeling that dollar for dollar, $400 gives you more buying power in the US than it does in Belgium. But because of the extra benefits one has in Belgium (paid vacation, health care, better social security, tons of "free" services) it's again hard to make a comparison, because most of those things would be simple unaffordable on a $400 wage in the US. In the end, I feel like you have more of a personal choice on how to spend your money in the US, but you're less able to buy the same level of security with it than the same amount in Belgium does. I'm sure both systems have their benefits and drawbacks from that point of view, I often wish we could have something in the middle -> a more free market. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl All I can say is.. be thankful there are still delivery drivers. Yes, thank god that we've got anybody still working in the service industry in the US. I totally get why the waitress in my favorite restaurant does her job. Ticket prices for a table for two are seldom less than $100-$150 there. Assuming she does an average of 4 tables an hour, with everybody tipping an average of 20%, she'll make $100 an hour in tips; even if she's only getting tipped 15%, she's still taking in $75 and hour for four tables of two. No idea how much of that she shares with the other staff that doesn't do table service, but I'm sure she still takes home a nice paycheck. What I'm not too sure about is how a place like Denny's is still able to find waitstaff. With wages in the service industry being as low as they are, and tips there being next to nothing, it's unbelievable to me that people actually want to work there. But with the whole American wage system being totally different than it is in Belgium (my husband for example, makes about 15% more here than he would for the same job in Belgium) and with Americans being used to minimum wages being as low as what they are here, a lot of people must be taking those jobs because they simple don't have another option.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:35:21 PM)
Turnover rate. People go to a high price restaurant and rarely leave within an hour.. most will sit for 2. Meals are sent out in courses, which takes longer than the family style restaurants. People that go to Dennys are typically in and out. I know, I worked at one. A one course meal. I worked at a Waffle House in Myrtle Beach.. and made great tips working breakfast... my tables turned every 30 minutes... the AC is set to ensure that... lol. No courses, everything is basically brought all at once, they eat then dash. Not many servers can handle both types.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:37:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Oh, so delivery wouldn't work on a non-tip based system? There are tons of jobs in this country that pay a flat rate. And very few people feel they are paid what they are actually worth. So you have many cases of people in menial jobs doing "just enough to not get fired." so sure, it could work if you don't mind paying more or getting cold pizza from an uncaring delivery person. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That's odd, considering that I had no trouble getting pizza delivered in Belgium, where tipping the driver is nearly unheard of. We're not in Belgium. We're in America where people refuse low-paying jobs they feel are beneath them.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:40:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Where do you get the lunatic idea that it would cost $40 for a pizza? You don't actually expect an American company to eat the cost of paying its people a higher wage, do you? Again, this is America, not Belgium. If the guys at the top can pass an expense along to the consumer, they'll do so in a heartbeat.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:42:44 PM)
Im going to ask you a slightly off topic question. How many corporations in Belgium get tax refunds? Or do they file taxes like we do here?

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:43:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl For example.. in 2004, according to this site... http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm The minimum wage in EU for Belgium is 1210. Converted to US dollars, 1,600 I can't give you an English link, but since May 2011, Belgian minimum wage is 1,443.54 € a month. So that's $1947.47. I don't know how many hours and American workweek is, but that would be for 38 hours a week. quote: Since May 2011 is the average minimum monthlywage: for employees 21 years and older: 1,443.54 € for employees 21 years and a half, who have been with the company 6 months or more: 1,481.86 € for employees 22 years, who have been with the company 12 months or more: 1,498.87 € (Belgian federal government site) http://www.meta.fgov.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=1024# quote: Sinds mei 2011 bedraagt het gemiddeld minimum maandinkomen: voor de werknemers van 21 jaar en meer: 1.443,54 € voor de werknemers van 21 jaar en een half, met zes maanden anciënniteit: 1.481,86 € voor de werknemers van 22 jaar, met twaalf maanden anciënniteit: 1.498,87 € http://www.meta.fgov.be/detailA_Z.aspx?id=1024#

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:46:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Oh, so delivery wouldn't work on a non-tip based system? There are tons of jobs in this country that pay a flat rate. And very few people feel they are paid what they are actually worth. So you have many cases of people in menial jobs doing "just enough to not get fired." so sure, it could work if you don't mind paying more or getting cold pizza from an uncaring delivery person. I've never gotten cold pizza when ordering for delivery there. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That's odd, considering that I had no trouble getting pizza delivered in Belgium, where tipping the driver is nearly unheard of. We're not in Belgium. We're in America where people refuse low-paying jobs they feel are beneath them. That's funny. Belgians complain about the exact same thing: Longtime unemployed people refuse low-paying jobs they feel are beneath them. What makes you assume that's an American thing?

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:47:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr So on the EXACT SAME ORDER: 8 chicken wings 1 medium deep pan pizza with 3 toppings 2 liter coke The Belgian price: $28.85 The American price: $23.41 + $4.60 tip = $28.01 Imagine that, Pizza Hut is slightly more expensive than Dominos. It may be because of the difference in wings and soft drinks, it may be because Pizza Hut counts a $2.25 delivery charge while Dominos only charges $1.50 for delivery. Either way, on the exact same order Pizza Hut Belgium is $0.84 more expensive than Pizza Hut US. Yeah you're right DarqueMirror, the Belgian business model of not expecting the driver's wages to be dependent mostly on tips will never work. You don't know it, but you just proved my point for me. Your calculations showed that the prices are similar, assuming a tip of almost $5. Most here don't even give that. So your almost $5 tip took a $23 order to $28. That's more then, than $23, isn't it? Whether you're paying on the front end or the back end, you're still paying. The difference is that when you give it in a tip, the employee has incentive to do well.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:48:19 PM)
Avg work week here may be anywhere from 32 hours to 40 for full time... with no benefits. Depending on the state, minimum wage here is federally mandated at 7.25.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:53:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Where do you get the lunatic idea that it would cost $40 for a pizza? You don't actually expect an American company to eat the cost of paying its people a higher wage, do you? Again, this is America, not Belgium. If the guys at the top can pass an expense along to the consumer, they'll do so in a heartbeat. That's funny, are you saying an American company like Pizza Hut wouldn't charge $40 for a pizza in Belgium if they could get away with it? Or that they wouldn't do the same in the US if they could get away with it? Or that a Belgian company wouldn't charge double prices if they could get away with it? Things are as expensive as companies can get away with making them. Nobody will charge $15 for a pizza if the market easily bears $40 for the same pizza. So let's assume that you're right, and Pizza Hut's profit margins are a lot higher in the US than they are in Belgium because wages are higher in Belgium. That doesn't mean that if wages would become more expensive in the US that pizza would become more expensive. It means that American profit margins would become a closer approximation of the Belgian ones. Any company that charge $40 for a pizza will go out of business. Companies rather take lower profit margins than to go out of business. So if wages go up, profit margins would go down... That is, IF your assumption that American profit margins are higher than Belgian ones is correct. And I'm not too sure about that.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr I've never gotten cold pizza when ordering for delivery there. And it's not America, is it? quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That's funny. Belgians complain about the exact same thing: Longtime unemployed people refuse low-paying jobs they feel are beneath them. What makes you assume that's an American thing? Well, considering your exchange with tazzy, you've already discussed company vehicles and benefits for drivers there. The drivers here enjoy none of those. They usually aren't even allowed to be "full-time employees" (hours capped just under what the law dictates as full-time), because the company doesn't want to provide benefits. Sounds to me like our lower class has it worse than your lower class.

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:58:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Where do you get the lunatic idea that it would cost $40 for a pizza? You don't actually expect an American company to eat the cost of paying its people a higher wage, do you? Again, this is America, not Belgium. If the guys at the top can pass an expense along to the consumer, they'll do so in a heartbeat. That's funny, are you saying an American company like Pizza Hut wouldn't charge $40 for a pizza in Belgium if they could get away with it? Or that they wouldn't do the same in the US if they could get away with it? Or that a Belgian company wouldn't charge double prices if they could get away with it? Things are as expensive as companies can get away with making them. Nobody will charge $15 for a pizza if the market easily bears $40 for the same pizza. So let's assume that you're right, and Pizza Hut's profit margins are a lot higher in the US than they are in Belgium because wages are higher in Belgium. That doesn't mean that if wages would become more expensive in the US that pizza would become more expensive. It means that American profit margins would become a closer approximation of the Belgian ones. Any company that charge $40 for a pizza will go out of business. Companies rather take lower profit margins than to go out of business. So if wages go up, profit margins would go down... That is, IF your assumption that American profit margins are higher than Belgian ones is correct. And I'm not too sure about that. Ishtarr, This is what Pizza Hut and other pizza companies did to its employees. Instead of raising the pizza price when cost demanded they should... they added on a delivery charge. That delivery charge, to the customer, should go to the delivery person. Instead, it goes to the employer, who pays the driver the minimum they can get away with based upon mileage. If a pizza cost you, in the US, 30 dollars, and there was no delivery charge, would you tip? or would you stop ordering pizza?

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 9:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr That's funny, are you saying an American company like Pizza Hut wouldn't charge $40 for a pizza in Belgium if they could get away with it? Or that they wouldn't do the same in the US if they could get away with it? Or that a Belgian company wouldn't charge double prices if they could get away with it? Things are as expensive as companies can get away with making them. Nobody will charge $15 for a pizza if the market easily bears $40 for the same pizza. So let's assume that you're right, and Pizza Hut's profit margins are a lot higher in the US than they are in Belgium because wages are higher in Belgium. That doesn't mean that if wages would become more expensive in the US that pizza would become more expensive. It means that American profit margins would become a closer approximation of the Belgian ones. Any company that charge $40 for a pizza will go out of business. Companies rather take lower profit margins than to go out of business. So if wages go up, profit margins would go down... That is, IF your assumption that American profit margins are higher than Belgian ones is correct. And I'm not too sure about that. Were you sleeping when the banks in this country were going to charge a fee to customers to use their own money (via debit cards) to make purchases after the government placed limits on what they can charge to vendors? It was only after a major customer backlash that the banks backed down from that plan. Even still they didn't totally back down, they simply found more creative and discreet ways to charge people without the backlash. Companies in this country like profits (as you'd expect in any capitalist society). They are not about to lose that money just because you think they should pay more money to their employees. Whether it's a tip on the back end or a higher price on the front end, you're the one paying.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:07:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror You don't know it, but you just proved my point for me. Your calculations showed that the prices are similar, assuming a tip of almost $5. Most here don't even give that. So your almost $5 tip took a $23 order to $28. That's more then, than $23, isn't it? Whether you're paying on the front end or the back end, you're still paying. The difference is that when you give it in a tip, the employee has incentive to do well. The $4.60 tip on the $23 order is the 20% minimum I tip on a pizza that isn't late. When they get here 10 minutes faster than what they promised me, I tip 30%. Of course you can tip lower than that... but wait a second, aren't you the same guy that was chastising me for not tipping for a service I already pay for and only tipping for how well that service is delivered? You where arguing earlier in this thread that I MUST tip, because these people depend on their tips for survival, and now you're implying that a 20% tip is excessive? Okay.... 15% tip = $3.50; total cost $26.92; the difference $1.93 10% tip = $2.35; total cost $25.76; the difference $3.09 05% tip = $1.20; total cost $24.61; the difference $4.24 Should I tip even lower than that and let the delivery guy starve to death to save $5 on pizza? Like I said earlier in this thread I don't have an issue with paying enough for pizza and delivery to make sure that the driver gets a fair wage. If you didn't feel the same, and think that drivers should starve to death so you can have cheaper pizza, you should have said something sooner, because that totally changes the tone of the conversation.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:14:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Im going to ask you a slightly off topic question. How many corporations in Belgium get tax refunds? Or do they file taxes like we do here? I'm not sure how exactly corporations are taxed in Belgium. I know that taxes (both personally and corporate) are generally higher though, because it's a socialist system that offers a bunch of "free" services. I'm by no means saying I think the Belgian system is better in every way (otherwise I wouldn't be in the US). I personally don't care much for socialism, and I prefer the greater control America offers over the money one makes over the benefits Belgium offers due to the higher taxes. However, I also rather pay the fair market value for the services and goods I buy, rather than having to guess how much I need to pay for my pizza to make sure that the driver gets his fair share. I dislike the fact that under the American system, it's too easy for hard working lower-class people to get fucked over because a less than livable wage is common here. As much as I dislike Pizza Hut in the US, if they start advertising that they're offering their people a fair wage in exchange for an average $5 price increase, I'll never order from Dominos again. Sadly, I'm in the minority when it comes to that line of thinking.

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