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The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 10:14:52 PM

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From: San Antonio
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For your consideration: In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it -- who has the least to lose if it breaks up. And, too often, desperate Doms scurry about & do anything to get a sub, & will indiscriminately take on any sub that'll give them a nod. To me, it's pretty obvious the sub is in control of such relationships.

I recall a relatively famous Dom (who started a BdSm club chapter & who publishes his own D/s magazine) -- he trailed along after his "slave" when she moved out of this country. He was barely able to support himself in his chosen occupation, but lived in comfort off of her salary. She eventually handed him his hat when she caught him cheating on her. So ... who do YOU think was in control? (Just one example.)

I don't expect everyone to agree with me ... but just tossing out the topic for your consideration.

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 10:32:51 PM

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The ability to walk away, does not pertain to what i would consider the control elements within my relationship.
Im perhaps a little back to front in the submissive stakes. I am, financially independant. I am assertive. I am a achiever. I am a manager. I am in control of my life when apart from my Sir.
Either in spite of, or because of my dominant personality traits, i need to submit. So i 'give' control to a very loved and trusted other.
Either in play, enjoyable, but not enough for me, or in life, where his say is final.
Without this control and power i give him freely, id walk all over him, dominate him, basically, make a submissive of him. Then get bored, separate and have to start seeking all over again.
I simply cannot control the power i have within. So i rely on another to do so for me.
Both of us have power. Mine is the power of submitting control to him. His the reverse. When the power exchanges back and forth, its haven.
If my Dom is not incharge, then im not being dominated am I. And whats the use of that?
Sure, i could walk, but first, id like to look at what is going wrong. Why am i not submitting my power to him. I do that with communication and discussion on a very honest level.
D/s or any other power exchange relationship over a long period, will have high's and lows. Constantly evaluating the relationship together, and ensuring it is on the track you both chose, well, you both have the power to do that. And the responsibility.
In a bad week, i will revert to type. ie. take over. This upsets the power exchange dramatically, and things go haywire for us. I have to therefor control myself, and allow myself to be controlled to shift the exchange back onto its correct axis.
Power to leave? we all have that, but that;s irrelevant for most of us, most of the time.
Over time, any relationship will get a little lost. Its the couple's ability to not lose sight of who they are to each other, and all that that entails, what they are trying to achieve, the ability to communicate that makes it a winner.
I do have power, power to sabotage our relationship by not holding up my end of the bargain. And walk when it goes wrong. I dont find the thought empowering to me.
little1

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 10:37:45 PM

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So silly. Love-lost is aweful. If we are worth anything "standing alone" we will and do. It stinks...BUT.... there are smiles and hugs along the way.

_____________________________

-Babysburnin

"Love is, above all else, the gift of oneself."
- Jean Anouilh

"The highest proof of virtue is to possess boundless power without abusing it."
- Lord Macaulay

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 10:41:18 PM

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc

For your consideration: In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it -- who has the least to lose if it breaks up. And, too often, desperate Doms scurry about & do anything to get a sub, & will indiscriminately take on any sub that'll give them a nod. To me, it's pretty obvious the sub is in control of such relationships.

I recall a relatively famous Dom (who started a BdSm club chapter & who publishes his own D/s magazine) -- he trailed along after his "slave" when she moved out of this country. He was barely able to support himself in his chosen occupation, but lived in comfort off of her salary. She eventually handed him his hat when she caught him cheating on her. So ... who do YOU think was in control? (Just one example.)

I don't expect everyone to agree with me ... but just tossing out the topic for your consideration.

I think the argument would carry more weight if you used an example of a healthy relationship where the parties are open and honest. In the scenario you outlined, I'd say it was the 'lie' that was in charge until the partner who was lied to caught on and threw the ass (not a dominant in my opinion) out the door. I don't much care how 'famous' someone is.. if they act that way, they go straight into the liar catagory and out of the 'man', 'woman', 'dominant', 'slave'.. etc etc catagory.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 11:19:06 PM

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Interesting concepts: from one perspective you were saying, but not saying, that the dom was not in control. Despite the fact that there was trouble in mill, all relationships, have give and take. Do they not? M/s, D/s T/b ... relationships which experience the power exchange to some degree, and maybe you put too much emphasis on what that relationship was or was not.

I am sure that if you reversed the roles, of a submissive taking from the domly one, that that would be seen as acceptable. I disagree, a relationship are what two people decide on, what they negotiate. How do you know that the submissive/slave in the dynamic which you spoke of, did not consent willingly to that enviornment. Not knowing who the person supposedly is, and it is of no concern or consequence to me, i think it is easy to cast dispersions. Maybe the submissive/slave had a contract which said her Domly One could interact outside their union ... i think it is too easy, for people to cast judgement without really being aware of what is negotiated privately, and when things turn to pot, the pot is called black.

From another perspective, maybe slaves/submissives or bottoms, hold the power, and maybe, that's the way, it has always been. They choose to submit, it cannot be forced, but equally, it has to be a union where the delicate balance of ying and yang flow. I am sure there is another side to the story which you posted, and one that will remain silent.

Steps back into the shadows.

_____________________________

blessings
~mystique~

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/27/2006 11:25:55 PM

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How is it that a submissive has the least to lose?

Both parties have the same to lose.
If I was going to say someone had more to lose its the submissive. The Dominant to submissive ratio is far to small.

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RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 12:22:46 AM

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Actually the idea of the person with the least to lose/ most willing to walk away having the control is a long held idea from psycology texts, so it's a well founded idea. the problem comes in when trying to evaluate who has the least to lose.

It's not always monitary and it really has more to do with how each person values the relationship in the overall context of their own life. If it was just money then the argument falls apart, because I've seen people leave relationships where they left an awfull lot of money behind. So you have a much more complex equation than what you may want to look at.

Your financial dependance might be equal to my emotional dependance etc. Until you have really exhausted the entire ballance sheet of who has what to lose, you can't be sure who has the control ballance in their favor at any given moment.

A shift in the ballance can also occure at any time I develop a better emotional strength and your financial dependance does not change the ballance tilts.
You develop job skills and your financial situation improves and the ballance shifts again. Same can also happen with a person's values shifting, maybe the financial dependance gets to be a problem and I accept that I may have to lower the acceptable standard of living, if I am OK with that then the financial control has shifted the ballance again.

There is also the hazard of someone reaching the point where they see they have nothing left to lose because they have nothing left to give. Then the ballance is shifted in much the same as when in a tug of war, someone simply lets go of the rope.

Just a few more thoughts, not any real answer to it just a concept to be aware of.

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 4:55:00 AM

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I do not see where insecurity, or lack of confidence has anything to do with dominance, That is a problem we have in any lifestyle, the idea is to work through those times and not just walk away that is what communication is the most important part of any relationship. For these 2 i think the break down of those lines, didn't help and then him relying on someone else well that can put a kink in the trust issue if that was the issue. There is so many variables to this story that we do not know so it would be hard to judge who was at fault and who had the power over who. Yes i believe that sub/slave have power over their Dom's, but at the same time they are trying to not have that power thus (submission). I don't believe in real life there can ever be total submission of anyone. Life is to complicated for that. Well that is my 2 cents.

(in reply to Archer)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 5:45:29 AM

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Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc

For your consideration: In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it -- who has the least to lose if it breaks up. And, too often, desperate Doms scurry about & do anything to get a sub, & will indiscriminately take on any sub that'll give them a nod. To me, it's pretty obvious the sub is in control of such relationships.

I recall a relatively famous Dom (who started a BdSm club chapter & who publishes his own D/s magazine) -- he trailed along after his "slave" when she moved out of this country. He was barely able to support himself in his chosen occupation, but lived in comfort off of her salary. She eventually handed him his hat when she caught him cheating on her. So ... who do YOU think was in control? (Just one example.)

I don't expect everyone to agree with me ... but just tossing out the topic for your consideration.

I don't believe there is a correlation between control and having the strength to toss someone out on his backside when he's been found to be a cheater and a liar. That's simply a case of taking one's power back.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 6:39:56 AM

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Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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quote:

In my experience, the person in control of a relationship is the one who is capable of walking away from it

I agree.

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 9:42:12 AM

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Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Actually the idea of the person with the least to lose/ most willing to walk away having the control is a long held idea from psycology texts, so it's a well founded idea. the problem comes in when trying to evaluate who has the least to lose.

Power is the fluid word in the question. Everyone in a relationship has the power to walk away, but personality and fears can prevent people from doing so. For extreme examples of this look at abused woman and the charities that work with them.

I strongly do not believe just because a sub or slave can walk away easier than their dominant therefore they have the ultimate control in the relationship. All relationships including D/s one's have negotiations, financial decisions and other factors that determine how the relationship works. Just because a slave or sub knows in the back of her mind they can walk away and not have extreme physical, mental or monetary problems do so does not mean they cannot live a fully power exchange relationship with his or her dominant.

I think sometimes in the example you posted this is just real world and life going to the forefront of the relationship. He cheated, bye bye.

(in reply to Archer)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 9:58:36 AM

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Dear ADomDoc, Ladies and Gentlemen;

My I proffer for consideration, a few thoughts on the matter.

Both individuals have "power." To which either party/individual can decide with their own reasoning and or judgment to part company. Sometimes, such parting is a mutual and friendly parting, to which the affections and respect remains but, the relationship as M/s and or D/s is over.

Should a Dominant find a submissive cheating, the Dominant chooses to walk away; that Dominant has the power to do so, just as much as what you offered in an opposite manner, where the submissive caught the Dominant cheating. It happens in vanilla relationships as well as in D/s and or M/s. So, it would be worth considering to remove the labels of D/s and or M/s and focus on the cause and effects, to which leads to the breaking of the relationship.

Power is not exclusively financial. Power manifests in many ways. Power is not always positive, nor is it always negative.

Power is ours to give, ours to take and ours to share. It is also a consensual union between two or more adults. Choice is the administration of power, to which the one doing the choosing must own up to the responsibility of the choice.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 11:08:35 AM

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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc
I don't expect everyone to agree with me ... but just tossing out the topic for your consideration.

I think it was a pretty dysfunctional example but I do believe that the person that is able to get up and leave holds the power/control in the relationship. I also believe that the person that wants to be there the most is the one with the least amount of power.

Personally I think its hard for a Ds or Ms relationship to work if the dominant is the person least (emotionally) capable of leaving.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
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(in reply to ADomDoc)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 1:16:03 PM

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The example is not universal and as I said the power ballance as a total must be examined for the concept to work.

You said "but personality and fears can prevent people from doing so."
And that is part of exactly what I'm speaking of.

The concept is one of canceling out equal value things that keep one (either party) in the relationship.

If you reach the end of the equation and one paty still has something left to lose then they are in the lesser possition as far as negotiations that continue all the time even if they are subtle unaknnowledged negotiations.

If everything else has been accounted for and you have more to lose than I do I am in the stronger negotiating possition, I can either directly or indirectly use it or you may subconcipously use it to justify the result.

ANd it works both sides of the /.

If the submisive has 4 Dominants waiting for her to be released ready to take her in and give her XYZ then the current Dominant is in some ways preasured into giving them XYZ to keep her.

Lets look at the reverse angle here.

If the person with the least to lose is most likel to walk away then the reverse should also be true the person with the most to lose is the least likely to walk away.

Seems that the logic passes that test to me.

Again discussing concepts not individual cases here

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to lisa1978)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 1:32:15 PM

DarkSideOfThMoon

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The way I see it, as a submissive, I set the boundaries for Sir to work within. Some (hard limit) boundaries cannot be pushed, some (soft limit) boundaries can be pushed gradually, and I am sure that at some point my hard limits at the moment will become soft limits...

Bina

(in reply to Archer)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 2:09:02 PM

MistressTigger19

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Joined: 4/19/2006
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I am wondering if rather than looking at the less than ideal example given that the quesition/comment could or should be rephrased in a way that can answer the unspoken question more fully.

I think the ideal question is simply thus: Who has the control in a D/s or M/s relationship when all the rest of the Dominant/submissive struggles are stripped away?

For my personal response to THAT question - I tend to agree with DarkSideofTheMoon. The submissive has the control. She/he sets the limits of the relationship, negotiates what s/he will or wont do and chooses the Dominant based on that match of limits and personality. My slave boy CHOOSE to serve me. He held the inital power. It was his choise as well to give that power over to me.

What we must do is realize that underneath our Dominant . . . . power, peronae, or maybe even Ego . . . is that without our slaves, we would be . . . alone. I am grateful that my slaves and submissives and play partners have the strength and internal power to GIVE UP that power.

But my life as a dominant became easier and my control much more powerful once I accepted the same thing that Gil Grissom on CSI discovered when he almost fell in love with a dominatrix.

"The control lies with the submissive"

it is our blessing and our wonder that they give so much.

Miz Tigger

(in reply to DarkSideOfThMoon)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 2:27:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear ADomDoc, Ladies and Gentlemen;

My I proffer for consideration, a few thoughts on the matter.

Both individuals have "power." To which either party/individual can decide with their own reasoning and or judgment to part company. Sometimes, such parting is a mutual and friendly parting, to which the affections and respect remains but, the relationship as M/s and or D/s is over.

Should a Dominant find a submissive cheating, the Dominant chooses to walk away; that Dominant has the power to do so, just as much as what you offered in an opposite manner, where the submissive caught the Dominant cheating. It happens in vanilla relationships as well as in D/s and or M/s. So, it would be worth considering to remove the labels of D/s and or M/s and focus on the cause and effects, to which leads to the breaking of the relationship.

Power is not exclusively financial. Power manifests in many ways. Power is not always positive, nor is it always negative.

Power is ours to give, ours to take and ours to share. It is also a consensual union between two or more adults. Choice is the administration of power, to which the one doing the choosing must own up to the responsibility of the choice.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

It is such an Honor to know you Lady Hugs.

Your words and compassion have helped me through much in my journey.

When there is a lie the dynamic you shared ends in my opinion. If you are in an exclusive relationship and you cheat it shows me you lack respect for me and there is no reason to continue the relationship. I am financially self supportive and stable and refuse to support a man financially. This isn't about M/s or D/s it is about someone who screwed up in my opinion and needs to see the door. The one in control here is the person making the right healthy choice for themself.

(in reply to LadyHugs)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/28/2006 2:35:02 PM

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Dear sensilla,

{{Big hugs}}... I'm still looking for the blush icon thingy. {{{Hugssssssssssssss}}}

It is my pleasure and duty, honor and responsibility to help others.

I'm glad you found your strength and your wings--now your voice.

Warm regards,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to sensiia)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/29/2006 4:19:30 PM

Vancouver_cinful

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I do believe that the person that is able to get up and leave holds the power/control in the relationship. I also believe that the person that wants to be there the most is the one with the least amount of power.

Personally I think its hard for a Ds or Ms relationship to work if the dominant is the person least (emotionally) capable of leaving.

C~

I have to agree. Actually, in all relationships this is the case. Look even at employer/employee dynamics. The employer isn't always the one with all the cards.

And, as to a D/s relationship not working unless the dom is more willing to walk away, than the sub...I'd have to give it more thought, but my first intinct says, yes, that's the case.

_____________________________

Cin

quote:

My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: The Dom ain't always in charge - 5/29/2006 4:41:21 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I think that if a relationship last long enough that at any given time one or the other partner could have the strength to walk away from it. Doms are people too, they have the same fears, weaknesses, and foibles as any lesser mortal, what makes them less able to attach than anyone else? Personally I would not completely emotionally attach myself to someone who could walk away without a backwards glance. I want someone that needs me too. I do not think that is undomly, I think that is HUMAN to feel the need to attach to someone, to be vunerable to someone, to make them matter to you.

Needing me, wanting to salvage a relationship with me by not giving up on me do not signal weakness to me, they signal strength. If it is a submissive trait to be the person that always does this, well I guess subs are stronger than doms in my estimation... It is often easier to walk away because you did not get your way then to find common ground. Any jackass can treat a relationship like fast food, eat until you are full and throw the rest in the trash... but that is not my idea of the D/s relationship I want.

I admire a dom that controls his emotions, does not react from a place of emotion, and lives up to what he says he will do. I respect a dom that will not take someone that is abusive to them or manipulates them. I want a dom that respects himself, and therefore can respect me... but I also want someone that would give a shit if I fell off the face of the Earth tomorrow. Just my view...etc.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ADomDoc)

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