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RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 4:58:22 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Please note- I'm not disagreeing with anyone about the psychological damage rape can do- just questioning how useful it's going to be in a courtroom in front of a bunch of jurors.

It is extremely effective. The diagnosis itself goes a long way with jurors.

quote:

With respect to physical evidence....mental anguish is tough to show absent a baseline brain function prior to the rape. Do we want to allow fMRI into the courtroom? I'm not sure. The problem with the psychological tests which show PTSD- how do you prove it was due to the rape?

The same way you notice in a child. Personalities change... often dramatically.

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Post #: 421

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:07:37 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
With respect to physical evidence....mental anguish is tough to show absent a baseline brain function prior to the rape. Do we want to allow fMRI into the courtroom? I'm not sure. The problem with the psychological tests which show PTSD- how do you prove it was due to the rape?

I have to agree with part of this (sort of). I suffer from PTSD but it was not as a result of my rapes. It was a result of losing my fingertips. I was raped at ages 8 and 26 and I didn't present with PTSD until immediately following my fingertip incident (age 36).

However, I think, if it came down to it, it could be demonstrated that the victim did not present with PTSD until after the rape. I don't think that's too difficult to do. I think the diagnosis of PTSD has come a long way and I think the psychological community has a pretty good grasp on how to pin down the causes. I admit that there is still some small amount of conjecture and that some might still find a way to make false accusations of rape but, I really think those factors are negligible.

I don't believe that the mental affects of rape are difficult to show, at all. In fact, in some cases, I find it to be the only determining factor. Just as an example: I threaten a lady that I will divulge her past as a go-go dancer to her husband. She "consents" to sex. She will probably not have physical damage. There may very well be evidence of sexual activity but that is not evidence of rape. Certainly, in this case, I have raped her but there would be no definitive physical evidence. However, she is very likely to be emotionally devastated and that would be fairly easy to see/demonstrate.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/24/2011 5:09:10 PM >

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Post #: 422

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:16:16 PM

samboct

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Michael

Show me another felony that relies on establishing the mental anguish of an individual rather than simple physical facts, i.e. bruises, state of wallet, state of death etc. Its why I point out that rape is considered a special crime by much of the populace, with a great deal of disagreement about it- check the wiki on rape sometime.

Sam

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 423

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:34:09 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Michael

Show me another felony that relies on establishing the mental anguish of an individual rather than simple physical facts, i.e. bruises, state of wallet, state of death etc. Its why I point out that rape is considered a special crime by much of the populace, with a great deal of disagreement about it- check the wiki on rape sometime.

Sam

I'm not sure that I can name one, specifically but, I am quite sure that there are any number of felonies that a mental health professional could commit that would specifically be evidenced by mental anguish. I'm pretty sure that doctors can do the same thing. In fact, I'm pretty sure that any profession where there's an assumption (or need) for trust in order for the relationship to work has the potential for felonies to be committed under their umbrella that would only involve mental anguish.

My best guess would be: doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, police officers, priests/ministers/rabbis etc.

The human psyche is a fairly fragile thing in a lot of cases and is easily trifled with by people that have some kind of authority.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 424

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:44:44 PM

barelynangel

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Again, Sam, have you ever been to a trial of any violent crime?

You said no earlier, maybe it's time you go to one and sit through the whole thing. Much of a rape trial is in fact physical evidence, i.e., rape kits, doctors testifying as to their conclusions of the testing, forensic science. MOST rapes are convicted based upon this evidence especially nowadays with DNA. However, just like with ANY trial, circumstantial evidence is also introduced especially when physical evidence doesn't give absolute. AND, if the victim is able they DO testify, many times it is very traumatic for them ESPECIALLY rape victims because they are put on trial and the defense tries to mitigate the crime by somehow insinuating to the jury that this victims somehow asked for it, wasn't in their right mind to identify the defendant etc, just as they do with assault, domestic violence, etc.

Perhaps you need to investigate the actual trials of different types of crimes instead of throwing out numbers you don't seem to understand.

What you also don't get is the affect a crime has on someone, i.e., what you are calling mental anguish, comes into play more in sentencing AFTER the conviction. They many times read or the victim will read what is called a victim statement to the court that outlines the trauma they are suffering from due to the crime committed against them.

You are assuming a hell of a lot you have no clue about, perhaps instead of throwing out stupid assumptions about different types of crimes and trials you actually experience them even if the only way you can is through observation.

Each trial is like a person they are all different. Each set of evidence and facts is a puzzle that needs to be set out to the jury. I don't get where you don't think physical evidence is a main part of the trials. In this day and age especially physical evidence is very important especially in this day of date rape drugs and such people use to rape women.

There is no more or less emotional concept brought into trials of rape than there is of murder, domestic violence, aggravated assault etc. A trial is like a play, the puzzle is set out by both sides of the case and the jury decides which side has done their job of allowing them to decide something beyond a reasonable doubt or not.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/24/2011 5:47:58 PM >

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Post #: 425

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:50:53 PM

DaddySatyr

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I wanted to add this to my last post but, didn't want to do it as an edit.

Here are the "felonies" (in my mind) which could leave no physical damage or sign yet be emotionally devastating (presented by profession):

1) Doctor: "You have a rare disease that affects your spinal cord and brain stem and you only have six months to live" if the fact is that you have something completely benign like a muscle pull in your lower neck.

2) Psychiatrist/Psychologist: "It is completely normal to want to commit homicide if someone cut in front of you in line"

3) Police Officer: "Yes. We always conduct strip searches in front of witnesses. We find it cuts down on false claims of inappropriate sexual contact"

4) Priest/Minister/Rabbi: "You're going to hell if you eat meat on Friday/commit adultery/eat pork"

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 426

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 5:53:46 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

The Brandeis feminists then had a very similar mantra to what a number of posters on this thread-
1) that no means no-
2) rape is a crime that affects women, perpetrated by men
3) That convincing men that many of them will be engaging in criminal activity when they have sex with women, and that men should be careful lest they go to jail.

I call BS. What are the post numbers of posts on this thread holding the bolded position?

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 427

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:00:47 PM

tazzygirl

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They are grasping at straws

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Post #: 428

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:06:35 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I have to agree with part of this (sort of). I suffer from PTSD but it was not as a result of my rapes. It was a result of losing my fingertips. I was raped at ages 8 and 26 and I didn't present with PTSD until immediately following my fingertip incident (age 36).

However, I think, if it came down to it, it could be demonstrated that the victim did not present with PTSD until after the rape. I don't think that's too difficult to do. I think the diagnosis of PTSD has come a long way and I think the psychological community has a pretty good grasp on how to pin down the causes. I admit that there is still some small amount of conjecture and that some might still find a way to make false accusations of rape but, I really think those factors are negligible.

Posttraumatic stress disorder[note 1] (PTSD) is a severe anxiety disorder that can develop after exposure to any event that results in psychological trauma.[1][2][3] This event may involve the threat of death to oneself or to someone else, or to one's own or someone else's physical, sexual, or psychological integrity,[1] overwhelming the individual's ability to cope. As an effect of psychological trauma, PTSD is less frequent and more enduring than the more commonly seen acute stress response.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 429

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:15:02 PM

xXLithiumXx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx
I don't know about falling short. In my state, if you imply that you will do physical damage someone, then you have committed an act of terroristic threatening. While that is not a felony, and it certainly wouldn't stop them from actually doing it, it may give them a reason to pause and consider their actions more fully in the future.

The portion in red is probably accurate. However, I would also add that sometimes, "imply" or "implication" becomes a legal grey area. Now, let me be a "lawyer" for a moment:

"Who would you like to smack in the face?"

"Who are you going to smack in the face?"

No doubt it's a splitting of hair but one is desire and one is intent. One is a "dream". One is a threat. It's the kind of hair splitting that defense lawyers do because of the way our system is set up.

I am not saying that what these young men did is right. I am saying that it falls short of legal action. In todays climate of "Men must be wrong", if there was a prosecution possible, these guys would already stand charged. Even if not, I've seen prosecutors file charges to "send a message" so even that isn't the best barometer of actual criminal activity.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I agree that making an example is always a bad way to make a point, but! In this case, I think a very clear message needs to be sent. The least these boys should face is academic suspension and some therapy.

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Post #: 430

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:18:11 PM

tazzygirl

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I would vote for academic probation, 1 year, and therapy. But, how do you achieve that when you dont know who the writer was? Or is punishing the whole house for their silence on the actions of a few acceptable? For me, it is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)

Post #: 431

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:19:29 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Hi Angelika

Agree 90% on the pervocracy page. The problematic statement is here which another poster on that page Asehepe picked up on. Here's her comment:

"When we treat rapes between acquaintances and in relationships as rape-rape--in the news, in the legal system, in our conversations--we reinforce the idea that they're just as wrong and shocking as jumping out of the bushes."
This is indeed true. I note, however, that it bypasses the most important aspects of 'gray areas'. Because it's not always clear what kind of situation we're talking about, sometimes very different things -- the guy who just didn't listen to the repeated "oh no, please let's stop!" from his girlfriend, and the girl who felt angry because he didn't do exactly what she liked and decided it must be rape."

If rape between acquaintances and in relationships is simple- then sorry, I have to disagree. If it's a complex subject, then I can agree. Are there times when charges should be filed? Yes. But as noted- this is a gray area, and simple litmus tests fail.

With respect to physical evidence....mental anguish is tough to show absent a baseline brain function prior to the rape. Do we want to allow fMRI into the courtroom? I'm not sure. The problem with the psychological tests which show PTSD- how do you prove it was due to the rape?

Please note- I'm not disagreeing with anyone about the psychological damage rape can do- just questioning how useful it's going to be in a courtroom in front of a bunch of jurors.

Cheers,

Sam

Neither she nor I suggested that rape between acquaintances is simple; that doesn't mean it should be treated differently than non-acquaintance rape. If it occurs it is still a crime.

Sam, I don't really like relying on someone else to make my point but the issue of false accusation, (which happens less often than you seem to think) is addressed well here:
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/09/ten-shades-of-false-rape-accusations.html

You have expressed concern that women after having sex might simply decide they regretted their decision and instead of owning their regret, go and report rape; that may happen sometimes, I am sure it does, but because many women don't report sexual assault due to the humiliation involved I am thinking- with reasoning -that it just doesn't happen very often.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
(btw add into that the fact that there is a backlog on testing rape kits in many communities... )

You do know that not all rapists are non-violent, right?
And that even in a violent attack she still might not press charges?

You keep making the assumption that rape doesn't equal physical injury.
That isn't true; often there is some bruising or tearing.
Vaginas tend to tighten when under duress.
What is true is that many women don't want to go through the invasive-ness of a rape exam.

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Post #: 432

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:24:07 PM

xXLithiumXx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I would vote for academic probation, 1 year, and therapy. But, how do you achieve that when you dont know who the writer was? Or is punishing the whole house for their silence on the actions of a few acceptable? For me, it is.

Honestly, if you go by the fact that the organization just came back from a suspension, (I think I read that some pages back) then I would say it is with in the power of the dean to hold the entire organization responsible.

After all, isn't that what frats are supposed to be about? A sense of community responsibility? A sense of social obligation? Obviously, there are exceptions, such as the person who turned it in, but at the end of the day, this had to have been something that everyone knew about, so everyone should be assessed and held academically responsible.

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Ideas don't stay in some minds very long because they don't like solitary confinement

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Post #: 433

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:25:49 PM

barelynangel

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The problem i see with this group is what do they define as rape?

To me, education is needed here -- not punishment.

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

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Post #: 434

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:28:10 PM

LafayetteLady

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I wasn't disputing your points Michael, more a matter of pointing out to others that this incident could very well miss the mark for any type of criminal prosecution. As for a civil case, the only ones who could legitimately file would be the women named. Proof they were named would, of course, be necessary, and even then, they would have to prove some kind of real suffering to be awarded damages.

Actually, I believe you and I have been in agreement regarding what punishments would likely be most appropriate and effective.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 435

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:30:00 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx
I agree that making an example is always a bad way to make a point, but! In this case, I think a very clear message needs to be sent. The least these boys should face is academic suspension and some therapy.

I don't know if we need to go as far as therapy and certainly therapy as a form of punishment sends the wrong message about therapy. It's supposed to beneficial and ... well ... therapeutic (Sorry for the pun). Also, I don't know that forced therapy is ever effective. How many people get sent to A.A. meetings, when they're convicted of drunk driving and then, re-offend?

I made the point in post #33 or #35 on page 2 that there are plenty of things that could be done, legally, that are not actions of the courts. Publish their names in the paper or school paper. Let their parents know what they've done. Circulate a flier to the female population of the school that these young men have expressed ideas that could put the ladies on campus in danger.

I am not saying that punishment is not called for. I am saying that under current laws, they fall short of criminal culpability.

I guess your idea of suspension/expulsion is not out of line but, I wouldn't push for it because in the end, this is not a criminal act and I'm not sure that the school wouldn't be exposed to civil action if they took that tack.

I'm at a point where I'd like to start limiting peripheral damage as a result of this and start trying to take pro-active steps to let these young men know the gravity of their "just in fun" behavior and to try and make sure that it isn't repeated. I would hazard a guess that some of these young men have already gotten a wake up call to some degree or another.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)

Post #: 436

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:30:33 PM

xXLithiumXx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

The problem i see with this group is what do they define as rape?

To me, education is needed here -- not punishment.

Well, I mean do you honestly think that they sat down and said here is a list of what is and what isn't rape? No. I am pretty certain that they said, hey, if you could who would you rape? And that was that. I don't think the prerequisite dinner and a roofie before said surprise sex was discussed. I can't see cave men who would participate in this as being able to distinguish between what is rape and what isn't. I see them thinking about what the classic definition of rape is, and moving on with their beer goggled life.

Yes, education would be needed, but punishment is what is also needed. How can any one learn what a wrong action really is, if they are not shown that it is wrong?

_____________________________

If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

Ideas don't stay in some minds very long because they don't like solitary confinement

You have to believe in yourself. -Tsun Tzu-

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Post #: 437

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:35:31 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Honestly, if you go by the fact that the organization just came back from a suspension, (I think I read that some pages back) then I would say it is with in the power of the dean to hold the entire organization responsible.

After all, isn't that what frats are supposed to be about? A sense of community responsibility? A sense of social obligation? Obviously, there are exceptions, such as the person who turned it in, but at the end of the day, this had to have been something that everyone knew about, so everyone should be assessed and held academically responsible.

They just got off probation this fast fall semester for alcohol violations. Remember, they have already lost the house. Someone I get the feeling it wont be returned for a while.

Then there is this...

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111216/NEWS02/111216011/1007/NEWS02/Sig-Ep-member-admits-secretly-taping-woman-Stowe-locker-room

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)

Post #: 438

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:37:41 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

Yes, education would be needed, but punishment is what is also needed. How can any one learn what a wrong action really is, if they are not shown that it is wrong?

Seems like the campus itself may need some education. But I do agree, punishment of some form should be given. How else do you deter others effectively without both?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xXLithiumXx)

Post #: 439

RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus - 12/24/2011 6:39:13 PM

xXLithiumXx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx
I agree that making an example is always a bad way to make a point, but! In this case, I think a very clear message needs to be sent. The least these boys should face is academic suspension and some therapy.

I don't know if we need to go as far as therapy and certainly therapy as a form of punishment sends the wrong message about therapy. It's supposed to beneficial and ... well ... therapeutic (Sorry for the pun). Also, I don't know that forced therapy is ever effective. How many people get sent to A.A. meetings, when they're convicted of drunk driving and then, re-offend?

I made the point in post #33 or #35 on page 2 that there are plenty of things that could be done, legally, that are not actions of the courts. Publish their names in the paper or school paper. Let their parents know what they've done. Circulate a flier to the female population of the school that these young men have expressed ideas that could put the ladies on campus in danger.

I am not saying that punishment is not called for. I am saying that under current laws, they fall short of criminal culpability.

I guess your idea of suspension/expulsion is not out of line but, I wouldn't push for it because in the end, this is not a criminal act and I'm not sure that the school wouldn't be exposed to civil action if they took that tack.

I'm at a point where I'd like to start limiting peripheral damage as a result of this and start trying to take pro-active steps to let these young men know the gravity of their "just in fun" behavior and to try and make sure that it isn't repeated. I would hazard a guess that some of these young men have already gotten a wake up call to some degree or another.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Oh, criminally, I have to agree with you. There is nothing that I can think of that can be done, depending on the wording. I mean, yes, a slick ass lawyer could argue it. And I can guess that these boys are having their back grounds peels through like you or I could not imagine. I mean, how many unsolved rape cases? Do we even know? I won't even try to get into the numbers. But consider little Billy is from Santa Fe, and there was a rash of unsolved rapes a few years ago. Get where I am going with this? I wonder if that has crossed anyone's minds?

I agree that the flier with their names on it would be great. Let them suffer a little of the public humiliation, even if it is a shame that most women carry internally, that they would so happily offer their would be victims.

Sure, call mom and dad. But I made the point when my daughter was in school and got jumped by a group of 6 boys (she was in the second grade...Had they been a few years older, I shudder to think what I may have been dealing with...)-what exactly are they seeing at home that makes them think this kind of thinking/behavior is acceptable?

Maybe if they were made to call their mothers, sisters, grandmothers, or female relatives and tell them. Maybe if those women were called in for a face to face sit down where they had to confess that they had these ideas. I dont know.

I had never considered the logic that forced therapy wouldn't work. But, I guess I should have. Maybe after having to tell their mom they want to rape the girl next door, they will want some therapy? Maybe if they spend a few months working on a rape crisis hot line, hearing what women go thru every day. Maybe if they work for a survivors clinic...There are a million possibilities. The problem is...what is the realistic feasible outcome?

_____________________________

If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

Ideas don't stay in some minds very long because they don't like solitary confinement

You have to believe in yourself. -Tsun Tzu-

Resident Malkavian.

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Post #: 440

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