RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 11:51:57 AM)

quote:

The amount the livestock is fed is too low to prevent infections, it's quite common and very well known that low doses of antibiotics help to gain weight, when it comes to livestock, the quicker they gain weight the more profitable are they for the farmer. The problem is that whoever consumes the milk or other animal byproducts (eggs, milk, etc.) is also consuming the antibiotics they were fed, not only is the weight gain a problem but another problem - a much more serious one - is that this builds up a resistance against antibiotics. I dunno if you have to be an anti vaccination nut to be aware of a few simple facts or why do you think that being resistant against antibiotics is such a massive problem when it comes to fighting infections and why do you think hospitals have such a problem with MRSA?


The majority of the problem with MRSA is not taking antibiotics as prescribed. Not finishing a full course goes a long way to creating many organisms that invade our bodies into mutations.

I have to wonder, about the animals being fed antibiotics... and Im not sure so this really is a question.... how long do those antibiotics last, how long are they effective? I can take penicillin for an infection.. and have. It did not protect me from the next infection. Pennicillin has a half life of about an hour... meaning in one hour, half the dose is gone. within 5 is it considered 95% gone.

So, based upon that inderstanding of antibiotics, how long would a low does of antibiotics last in an animal?... I believe they have a longer metabolism time, at least cats do.



kalikshama -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 3:52:57 PM)

Whole Foods: Our meat: No antibiotics, EVER!

...a two-part story on antibiotics in food, the result of a three-month investigation by Katie Couric. It’s a story worth watching. Couric raises many concerns about the practice of giving antibiotics to food animals, primarily the worry that this practice may lead to antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria that can put human health at risk.

As the national meat buyer for Whole Foods Market, I can assure our customers that our standard is: No antibiotics, EVER! We work very hard to make sure that the people who produce our meat have raised their animals without the use of antibiotics, growth hormones* or animal byproducts in the feed.

According to Couric, for the past 60 years antibiotics have been used to create efficiencies in meat production. Antibiotics are added to the animals’ feed or water to prevent infection that can occur when animals are crowded in confined areas. As well, antibiotics given in this manner promote rapid growth.

For instance, conventionally raised cattle are ready for market in about 16 to 17 months, while cattle raised without antibiotics don’t leave the farm until they’re 20 to 24 months old. The extended growth period is a more expensive prospect for a farmer or rancher, but one we feel is well worth it.

At Whole Foods Market, finding farmers who go the extra mile and raise their animals without depending on antibiotics is simply what we do. We visit farms and ranches, meeting with the farmers to make sure they meet our standards.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 6:31:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


The majority of the problem with MRSA is not taking antibiotics as prescribed. Not finishing a full course goes a long way to creating many organisms that invade our bodies into mutations.

I have to wonder, about the animals being fed antibiotics... and Im not sure so this really is a question.... how long do those antibiotics last, how long are they effective? I can take penicillin for an infection.. and have. It did not protect me from the next infection. Pennicillin has a half life of about an hour... meaning in one hour, half the dose is gone. within 5 is it considered 95% gone.

So, based upon that inderstanding of antibiotics, how long would a low does of antibiotics last in an animal?... I believe they have a longer metabolism time, at least cats do.


That is a very simplistic view and a rather incorrect one. The not finishing a full course might contribute but according to recent studies it's only a small percentage of the problem, the over-prescription of antibiotics contributes much more, additionally if you prescribe it for every fart, the chance that people don't finish the full course and even if they do, that the organisms develop immunity - they adapt a good deal faster than we do, as their structure is much more simple than outs.

As for wondering about the animals, I trust vets who claimed that the amount being fed to life-stock is not sufficient to prevent infections or diseases but studies have shown that small amounts of antibiotics increase the weight gain without increasing the food intake - I tent to trust them. They are vets because they studied a subject, they didn't pull theories out of their neither regions. Cats might have a "longer metabolism time" (btw what does that mean? Is their metabolism slower or faster than ours?) but the last time I checked cats weren't raised as lifestock for human consumption.



tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 6:43:28 PM)

quote:

That is a very simplistic view and a rather incorrect one. The not finishing a full course might contribute but according to recent studies it's only a small percentage of the problem, the over-prescription of antibiotics contributes much more, additionally if you prescribe it for every fart, the chance that people don't finish the full course and even if they do, that the organisms develop immunity - they adapt a good deal faster than we do, as their structure is much more simple than outs.


This I agree with. For years they were prescribing antibiotics for everything, including the cold and flu. Thankfully we have moved far from that method. Something else that has happened is with the HIV virus, many diseases are also mutating at greater rates.

quote:

As for wondering about the animals, I trust vets who claimed that the amount being fed to life-stock is not sufficient to prevent infections or diseases but studies have shown that small amounts of antibiotics increase the weight gain without increasing the food intake - I tent to trust them. They are vets because they studied a subject, they didn't pull theories out of their neither regions. Cats might have a "longer metabolism time" (btw what does that mean? Is their metabolism slower or faster than ours?) but the last time I checked cats weren't raised as lifestock for human consumption.


When we took Binxie to the vet, he gave her a narcotic shot. According to him, cats' livers metabolize drugs more slowly than humans livers do.

I wasnt questioning the amount livestock are being fed. Im sure it is happening and frequently. What I am questioning is how much is remaining after slaughter.. such a nasty word.

From what I can find, about 80% is passed through quickly in urine and feces.

Regardless of the route or purpose of
antibiotic use, a portion of the dose will
not be absorbed by the animal and will
get passed in the urine or feces. The
actual amount varies from compound
to compound, but in some cases the
amount unabsorbed is much greater than
the amount absorbed. For example, an
estimated 80% of a dose of ampicillin is
excreted in urine or feces; in contrast,
only 20% of bacitracin is unabsorbed
1

Most studies looking at excretion rates
report that, in general, the excreted form
is the active form of the drug
2


http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/ID/ID-348-W.pdf

So, I was curious as to how long the remaining 20% rmains in the animal flesh when it hits the market. Or is the attention of this issue misdirected?



bemyslut -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 7:16:45 PM)

Antibiotics don't make people fat. Hormones don't make people fat. Genetics don't make people fat. Quitting smoking doesn't make people fat. What makes people fat is over eating!!! How many people even know the proper serving size for a entree, side or dessert? You can't walk into a restaurant in American and find a 3-4 oz steak on the menu!! Most restaurants offer entrees starting near 8-9 ounces; there are places that will even serve you 6 POUNDS of meat and if you can eat it, they will give it to you free!!! Before we start blaming everyone but ourselves, lets examine our genetic ancestors--mostly European descent.....ever been to Europe and seen 300, 400, 500+ pound people??? They are virtually impossible to find (unless you find an American Tourist). Just participated in a gastric bypass last week on a 36 year old male who weighed 600 POUNDS; guess what? He swore he hardly ate anything???!?!?!? WTF?..We blame genetics, but it is actually our bad habits and ignorance that makes us fat. True Mendelian genetics states qualities that enhance survival will be passed on through genes; traits which dont enhance survivability, are not passed on sufficiently and the trait disappears. I have participated in 100s of gastric bypasses, and EVERY SINGLE PATIENT will tell you: I hardly eat anything and I am still fat. Seriously? But Doc, my metabolism is really slow? Seriously? How does a lap band/gastric bypass alter your metabolism?? IT DOESN'T!! it is merely a physical limitation on the amount of food that can be eaten/digested.....I have consumed as much as 3000 calories a day and actually became leaner in the process ( gaining muscle mass and losing fat; i consumed lots of complex carbs, quality protein and "healthy" fats. 3000 calories a day worth of simple carbs and nutritionally empty foods would have turned me into a lard ass no matter how much i exercised (max of 45 minutes & 3x week)

Now we want to place blame on antibiotics? If the food is cooked adequately, the antibiotic will be rendered ineffective. Secondly, the amount of antibiotics that is actually in the tissue is marginal (unless of course, you eat 5 pounds of meat per meal). Doctors offices are replete with patients who don't take antibiotics on a regular basis.....This quasi science (really makes for cheap intellectual fodder)



Lockit -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 7:34:05 PM)

What? Did you work in records?

I cannot eat. I eat one very small, one item meal a day if that. I gained thirty pounds like that when my thyroid went off. The other time was forty pounds. Thyroid gets balanced out and I slowly lose weight, but bottom line... hormones, thyroid, stress and many other things DO cause weight gain.

The majority of people may over eat... but don't you put your attitude off as if it is medical fact. It isn't.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 8:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


So, I was curious as to how long the remaining 20% rmains in the animal flesh when it hits the market. Or is the attention of this issue misdirected?


I can't answer that, I leave that to the experts but years ago there was a scandal about hormones in veal (which in Europe is just young beef, the equivalent of lamb, nothing about being raised in the dark - that is illegal) and a veal steak (or steak of a baby cow or pill) had as much estrogen as a monthly supply of the contraceptive pill, whatever you feed somebody is going to remain somehow in the body...

The thing is that certain things can and will influence our metabolism, thyroid is one thing, antibiotics another - a bit like ruining your metabolism with the yo-yo effect of crash diets.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 8:11:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bemyslut

How does a lap band/gastric bypass alter your metabolism?? IT DOESN'T!! it is merely a physical limitation on the amount of food that can be eaten/digested.....



I don't know what you think you do for a living or how you are "invovled" in gastric bypass, but you obviously aren't the person learning anything about the procedure.

Gastric bypass surgery does indeed change how a body processes food.  It is currently being looked at as a viable treatment for diabetics.  And befor you go on another "eat less, exercise more fat people" tangent, patients who have gastric bypass have almost and IMMEDIATE reduction in blood glucose levels.  This is PRIOR to any weight loss.  Because the surgery essentially redirects how food is digested, it prevents the absorbtion of calories AND has been shown to cause in increase in insulin production.

Genetics also have a great deal to do with a person's body shape.  That isn't even new to science, although you seem to be ignorant of that fact.

So whatever doctor you work for, I'm glad I would never visit that doctor or hospital.  Next time try actually reading up on the truths of something before you go off on your little tangent.



tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 8:20:55 PM)

I forgot you lived in the UK. One of the issues I recall from years back was the Mad Cow scare and the EU blocking US beef.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_Hormone_Dispute#The_EU_ban_and_its_background



LadyConstanze -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 8:56:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I forgot you lived in the UK. One of the issues I recall from years back was the Mad Cow scare and the EU blocking US beef.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef_Hormone_Dispute#The_EU_ban_and_its_background


At the time the mad cow scare happened I was not living in the UK, I think I was fluctuating (due to studies and family ties) between Ireland, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy and Australia.

It's just that a lot of effort was put into nutrition and what effects animal flesh has on us in Europe due to the Mad Cow scare, so in a way it was a blessing in disguise that changed farming for the better. Even now people - or at least the more educated part of the population - will not buy battery raised meat and will have less meat but higher quality meat. Of course there is a large section of the population eating low quality meat as often as possible, funny enough also that segment of society that seems to suffer from health problems fairly often... The "you are what you eat" slogan carries some truth



Termyn8or -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 9:01:59 PM)

quote:

(Along with, y'know, causing diabetes/heart disease/epilepsy/autism/leprosy/the black death/other: the usual complaints normally associated with anti vaccination nuts, in other words...)


You are going to eat that someday.

T^T



tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 9:31:56 PM)

LC, I didnt question to start an argument. I was truly just curious about the questions I asked. Thank you for taking the time to answer them. [:D]



LadyConstanze -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/20/2011 11:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

LC, I didnt question to start an argument. I was truly just curious about the questions I asked. Thank you for taking the time to answer them. [:D]


I didn't take it as that, I just answered to the best of my ability and knowledge, but it is a subject that is rather dear to me, in general you do have to consume more than you burn to gain weight, but then there are factors that mess with your metabolism, most dietitians will agree that the best way to become obese is doing crash diets or very restrictive diets, because they fuck up your metabolism, the same thing goes for antibiotics. Our medical knowledge evolved a lot over the past 10 years, but I suspect it didn't ever scratch the surface yet...



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 12:19:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Im sorry I guess I am not understanding the article ... in being that I dont know people that take antibiotics on a daily basis continuously.

For what purpose?
Prophylaxis. That's my situation. I've 24 2-week refills for Bactrim (different name in UK, France, Spain, Germany, etc.).



Moonhead -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 4:55:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

(Along with, y'know, causing diabetes/heart disease/epilepsy/autism/leprosy/the black death/other: the usual complaints normally associated with anti vaccination nuts, in other words...)


You are going to eat that someday.

T^T

No I'm not. The vaccines cause autism story is bullshit, and no bastard has ever found a single scrap of evidence to support it.



MariaB -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 7:02:39 AM)

Imo we should be taking things like this very seriously.
We hear about so many things being harmful that it can get tiresome but for some things, the scientific evidence is right here in front of us. We really shouldn’t ignore that if we care about future generations.
Weight gain is one thing, becoming resistant to antibiotics is another and its common news that us humans are becoming more and more resistant to antibiotics.
Feeding meat animals slow release antibiotics leaves room for drug resistant bacteria to grow. This bacteria reproduces a genetic mutation that resists antibiotics. When we eat such meat, that mutating bacteria finds its way into us, guaranteeing the spread of antibiotic resistance in humans.
Over use of the drugs in people obviously contributes to the problem. But agricultural use has a lot to answer for. What they feed our meat animals is a major contributing factor to both weight gain and drug resistance in humans.
It’s a formula for disaster.



tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 9:01:09 AM)

One of the things leading to the resistance is the hand gels.

The concern for hand sanitizer is that continued use will cause the bacteria to adapt to the alcohol content. Consumers fear having “super bacteria,” that are resistant to soaps and antibacterial chemicals, on their hands. However, a study by the FDA shows that these concerns are unwarranted. Often, an agent would need to stay on the hands for a long period of time for the bacteria to become accustomed to it. The alcohol kills the majority of bacteria within the first few seconds of application, and dries too quickly for any remaining bacteria to become immune.

In other words, hand sanitizers do not cause bacterial resistance on the hands, so feel free to keep cleansing.

http://www.hand-sanitizer.us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=66

This i love... lol.

Of course it doesnt cause resistance on the hands... thats a silly comment. The body builds resistance to certain organisms by repeated exposure. Using sanitizers are great when you know you are handling items that may very well have been heavily soiled. Locally, many places have installed them by the doors to bathrooms... something I really appreciate, especially if you know what those door handles have produces in petri dishes. Its also good to have them in grocery stores since everyone uses the carts.

However, people use them almost religiously now. I have a girl friend who freaks out when she doesnt have one in her purse, and will make an extra stop to buy one, knowing she has 4 at home. If you keep something in a sterile environment long enough, it will lose its natural immunity. These products, when used to the extreme, is killing off the normal bacteria we should be exposed too, so that when we are hit with a full force of that bacteria, we will become sick.



kalikshama -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 9:28:34 AM)

I have no conventional anti-bacterial cleansers (I do occasionally use tea-tree oil or soap) and haven't been sick since I stopped using the pool at the Y years ago.



Termyn8or -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 11:07:34 AM)

quote:

and no bastard has ever found a single scrap of evidence to support it.


Ha, that is just so obviously - <insert adjective>

If there was absolutely no evidence there never would have been a controversy about it. Why would there ever have been any mention of it ?

I guess using Moonhead's Razor then, smoking cigarettes does not cause lung cancer. It's all post hoc ergo propter hoc right ?

T^T



tazzygirl -> RE: Are Antibiotics Making Us Fat? (12/21/2011 1:35:51 PM)

There was a controversy because a man in England faked a study, T. You know all this. Why are you playing this game?



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