RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines

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LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 6:43:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Why would they name the pilot? They had the contract with the airline and not the pilot, and the pilot works for the airline anyway, so it's the airline's responsibility. Personally I do hope they get compensated, if somebody would treat me like this, I would like them to feel it where it hurts them most, which is usually the check book, plus why should somebody be treated like that and not be compensated? With the media attention this case is getting, the airline will be very motivated to change their policies. They would name the pilot because the pilot was pointedly discriminating against them (based on facts presented here). The fact that he is employed by the airline doesn't mean only the airline is named. In the US, lawsuits name EVERYONE having direct involvement, even if those defendants are later dropped from the suit. This is because if the court was to find the airline not culpable, the suit against the pilot would still stand. NOT naming the pilot or specific people they believe discriminated against them tends to reek of simply seeking the deepest pockets.

LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 6:53:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Only that the airline hired the pilot, so why didnt they remove him if they didnt agree with his decision? Maybe because they don't have pilots sitting in a lounge somewhere waiting to take over his flight for him? Maybe because if they did that, then everyone on the plane would be suing over what they went through? Yes, what happened to those men (again, based on what is currently known) was wrong. But there were what? At least another hundred people on that flight. Why is it so easy to say they should be punished as well by having their flight cancelled? Especially when to do so would potentially make this a very volitile issue and certainly wouldn't do the Muslim community any good. Since we don't know all the FAA rules or the rules the airlines have governing flights, jumping to the conclusion that the airline could simply remove the pilot, cancel the entire flight, etc. is a conclusion based on assumption not fact and therefore completely without merit.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:04:34 PM)
quote: Maybe because they don't have pilots sitting in a lounge somewhere waiting to take over his flight for him? Maybe because if they did that, then everyone on the plane would be suing over what they went through? Then what do they do when they have a pilot that shows up intoxicated/sick? quote: the airline could simply remove the pilot, cancel the entire flight, etc. I didnt say cancel the flight.

LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:06:21 PM)
At those times everyone hasn't already boarded, have they?

barelynangel -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:06:29 PM)
Because he is more than likely a union employee, and it's not always cut and dry as to firing someone or removing them from duty especially if they have progressive discipline, does anyone yet know if the airline disciplined him in any way? Welcome to the world of unions. As far as i can tell, there is no public announcement from the pilot as to the ins and outs of the pilots decision. There is a lot of speculation from the Plaintiffs and others. The pilot may not have done anything wrong and when all of the information comes out --- it could very well end wherein while this really sucked for the two men, the behavior of the pilot was justified. It could end wherein the policies of Delta need to be changed or tweaked to avoid this discrepancy of employee's determination as to what the best course of action is in such a situation, or it could end wherein the pilot had a really bad day and fucked up and needs to be held accountable. These men were pulled aside in many different instances in the course of this issue. They were initially allowed on the plane with no issue, until such time the plane was called back to the gate and they were removed -- people on the flight were required to be delayed -- and then the pilot made a decision, the COMPLAINT is indicating the reasoning the pilot maintained his reasoning, however, until Delta answers, and they may not answer any allegations that have to do with their speculating as to why the pilot did certain things because they can't speak for the pilot. The whole complaint is a story, and in answering same the Defendants will have to be VERY careful and specific in their responses. As to why the pilot wasn't added, i could speculate he is a non-issue for the men in the general course of the suit. Even if his employment contract requires Delta to indemnify him and hold him harmless, all that would mean is that the guy would tender his defense to them. At the very least, comparative fault may be something Delta and ASA can assert against the pilot. There just isn't enough information. angel

LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:10:35 PM)
I'm kind of thinking that the airlines are likely to throw the pilot under the bus, but that might just be me being cynical. I do believe there is a lot more to this than what has made it to the press.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:13:45 PM)
quote: Because he is more than likely a union employee, and it's not always cut and dry as to firing someone or removing them from duty, does anyone yet know if the airline disciplined him in any way? Welcome to the world of unions. As far as i can tell, there is no public announcement from the pilot as to the ins and outs of the pilots decision. There is a lot of speculation from the Plaintiffs and others. The pilot may not have done anything wrong and when all of the information comes out --- it could very well end wherein while this really sucked for the two men, the behavior of the pilot was justified. It could end wherein the policies of Delta need to be changed or tweaked to avoid this discrepancy of employee's determination as to what the best course of action is in such a situation, or it could end wherein the pilot had a really bad day and fucked up and needs to be held accountable. I was thinking that too, angel. Unionized, they may not have been allowed to pull the pilot for just any reason. I get that. But these men were searched twice before boarding.. and the pilot took off, then returned to the gate.... he would have had to have been called back... or he would have had to call... but someone made the decision to turn the plane around for the men to be returned.

barelynangel -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:15:03 PM)
Of course they will, especially if he isn't added to the lawsuit. Major comparative fault allowance to a jury that can't take action against said party, so they have a integrity decision to make -- do they put all the fault on the pilot, do they put some on each party INCLUDING the Plaintiffs thereby mitigating the damages. Do they split the fault or percent it out agianst the non-named fault and the two remaining defendants. I think if this goes to trial, the defendants will have to work the jury to that end -- i.e., the pilot. All in all, if their policies do not support his actions -- then that to me is the right thing to do. If their policies support him, then i think they will probably go the percentage division of fault. Ya gotta love law lol.

barelynangel -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:16:23 PM)
Tazzy, i don't get where you are going with that line of reasoning.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:23:47 PM)
The problem was already there before they boarded the plane. Twice searched before boarding the plane. The plane was closed, the pilots in seats, they were pulling into the taxi lane, and they turned around to go back to the gate. Why? Thats the part that is missing. These men obviously were not a problem to the pilot before the plane pulled off. Why after leaving the gate? Did the pilot request to turn around or was he told too? Was what he told enough to spook him into not wanting them to get back on to the plane? I dont think the major problem these men are having is with the pilot at all, but the Airline itself. They were not ejected from the plane for causing a disturbance, otherwise that would have come out.

barelynangel -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:29:39 PM)
lol the WHY is what gets flushed out in the lawsuit. The pilot is the one who refused to let them back on the plane and did not back down. The employees of Delta tried to convince the pilot to let them on. The fact he initially let them on is part of the issue they are having. From a legal standpoint, the main issue here was the actions of the pilot in refusing to allow them to utilize the contract their ticket purchased allowed. There are all fun legalees and such, but that is the gist and will remain the gist until it gets flushed out, in my opinion. You start with what is known and then start adding bits and pieces until you have a line of defense that you can substantiate to a jury who techincally are the peers of the Plaintiffs, NOT the corporations. Then they will narrow it down to policies, the actions of all the employees and defining discrimination as well as all those fun little disclaimers that the tickets have etc. However, the pilot should be named, and i will be curious to see why he wasn't named. angel

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:34:00 PM)
Wasnt it the Delta rep who told the men what the pilot said? Lots of he said she said there. Will be one to watch.

barelynangel -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:35:43 PM)
All i am going on at this moment is the Complaint. That is the case from the perspective of the Plaintiffs. As far as i know the Defendants haven't yet answered and there will probably be a lot they deny or are unable to answer.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 7:42:49 PM)
Im just speculating... lol

LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 9:26:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The problem was already there before they boarded the plane. Twice searched before boarding the plane. The plane was closed, the pilots in seats, they were pulling into the taxi lane, and they turned around to go back to the gate. Why? Thats the part that is missing. These men obviously were not a problem to the pilot before the plane pulled off. Why after leaving the gate? Did the pilot request to turn around or was he told too? Was what he told enough to spook him into not wanting them to get back on to the plane? I dont think the major problem these men are having is with the pilot at all, but the Airline itself. They were not ejected from the plane for causing a disturbance, otherwise that would have come out. The thing here though, is you are automatically assuming the men did nothing to cause this to happen. Maybe they didn't, but maybe they did. I'm not going to say they weren't discriminated against by the pilot, but I'm not going to say the pilot was wrong, or the airline is instantly at fault. The plane hadn't "taken off," it had taxied away from the gate. The airline has not issued a comment yet, and I will be interested to know what they say. What I do know is this, flying a plane isn't the same as driving a car. I want to know what it is that made the pilot feel the way he did, but at the same time, the last thing any plane passenger wants is a pilot who is too nervous to fly. Perhaps the pilot has some history that caused his discomfort, I really don't know. The point is that neither do you or any of the other people instantly jumping to the conclusion these poor men suffered discrimination. Until both sides have answered, no one really knows what happened, and even then, unless we have transcripts on testimony, depositions and such, we know nothing beyond what the complaint and answer say, neither of which may actually be the truth, but rather the "spin" put on by the attorneys for each party. While discrimination happens, and this, right now, looks like it could be a case for discrimination, it doesn't mean it is. I see a real problem with society when a person plays the "race" card or cries discrimination and everyone immediately assumes that the person making the allegation is correct. Remember Tawana Brawley? Lots of screaming about discrimination there, tons of publicity, and when the truth came out, it was all a fabrication. I do see their destination being an "Islamaphobia" conference just a little too coincidental to the whole event.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 9:28:58 PM)
quote: Perhaps the pilot has some history that caused his discomfort, I really don't know. Then why would he wait till he is pulling away before saying something? This all isnt making sense... something is missing. The first security check is normal... why the second one... then the third? Until those are answered, nothing will make sense.

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 9:33:38 PM)
quote: The point is that neither do you or any of the other people instantly jumping to the conclusion these poor men suffered discrimination. Now wait a minute. I dont recall calling anyone a racist.. and I went back and I know I didnt. Nor did I accuse anyone of discrimination. In fact, I gave a plausible excuse for the pilot for not wanting to have them on the plane.

Termyn8or -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 9:50:12 PM)
FFR What if they reeked of booze and stale cigarettes ? T^T

tazzygirl -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 9:53:00 PM)
who? the pilots?

LafayetteLady -> RE: 2 Muslim men kicked off flight sue airlines (12/21/2011 10:01:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: The point is that neither do you or any of the other people instantly jumping to the conclusion these poor men suffered discrimination. Now wait a minute. I dont recall calling anyone a racist.. and I went back and I know I didnt. Nor did I accuse anyone of discrimination. In fact, I gave a plausible excuse for the pilot for not wanting to have them on the plane. Maybe it wasn't you who said it. If not I apologize, but you get my point. As you said in the previous post: quote: Then why would he wait till he is pulling away before saying something? This all isnt making sense... something is missing. The first security check is normal... why the second one... then the third? Until those are answered, nothing will make sense. To the best of my recollection, a pilots board the plane and is locked in the cockpit before anyone else boards. They do not see who boards the plane. So yes, this begs the question of "how did the pilot know who was on board?" I don't know. Perhaps the security checks were re-reviewed and a different set of eyes saw something different. I don't know. A lot of this doesn't make sense. And the confusion is a lack of facts coming from BOTH sides. So now the question becomes will we ever get those answers? And I guess that depends on what angel can look at from her job since she has access to the papers filed.

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