RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transgender child

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 5:03:03 PM

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quote:

If you are equating treatment of asthma, croup, or Diabetes with gender reassignment, then this statement would make sense.

Severe depression should not be treated before adulthood? Stating they would rather die than live like they are shouldnt be treated?

quote:

So what about lesbians that like to dress like men? I know for a fact many of them have no desire for a penis in any way shape or form.

Why would you assume they have a gender identity disorder?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 5:04:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

You have a history of saying things that are matters of opinion, your's, like they are facts, I think I just established that.

What you just established is that you are accusing tweak of something you are very obviously guilty of as evidenced by the posts above.

Like what? Hormone therapy is not part of gender reassignment?

Hormone therapy can be for many things. In this case, hormone therapy is reversible by simply stopping the medication.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 6:45:36 PM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

If you are equating treatment of asthma, croup, or Diabetes with gender reassignment, then this statement would make sense.

Severe depression should not be treated before adulthood? Stating they would rather die than live like they are shouldnt be treated?

Is gender reassignment the only treatment for depression? Teens in general have higher suicide rates, gay teens even higher. And I didn't say yea or nay, I said Diabetes isn't the same as GID, so to return to my original point, we are talking about gender reassignment being decided and acted upon before the age of consent, which was all I was trying to establish, that that's what we're talking about.

Good or bad, I haven't said, what did they do before reassignment was an option?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

So what about lesbians that like to dress like men? I know for a fact many of them have no desire for a penis in any way shape or form.

Why would you assume they have a gender identity disorder?

I wouldn't, that was the point - it's not like there haven't been agendas before, but mostly it was a joke.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/27/2011 6:46:21 PM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 6:55:38 PM

xssve

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Tweak here for example is apparently arguing the other thread that there's no scientific evidence of support any kind of gender theory, which would make GID an imaginary syndrome - I don't happen to agree, and I don't know what the consensus is, if any, but I think it's probably not imaginary.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 7:16:08 PM

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That is not what I am arguing on the other thread at all.

What I did do was to point out that xssve was unable to produce any scientific evidence to support his voluminous, categorical yet stunningly uninformed views on gender, views he'd like us to believe are informed by science. No need to do that here is there? xssve's posts speak for themselves.

Anyways, tazzy is doing a wonderful job exposing them for the drivel they are.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/27/2011 8:58:47 PM

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quote:

Is gender reassignment the only treatment for depression? Teens in general have higher suicide rates, gay teens even higher. And I didn't say yea or nay, I said Diabetes isn't the same as GID, so to return to my original point, we are talking about gender reassignment being decided and acted upon before the age of consent, which was all I was trying to establish, that that's what we're talking about.

Good or bad, I haven't said, what did they do before reassignment was an option?

The suffered. They grew up feeling like freaks and others told them they were. They were labeled gay, queer, ect. Many boys were beaten. Many were forced into roles they simply could not accept until they committed suicide.

Hormonal therapy is one step which allows these kids to get through the torment of puberty.

quote:

I wouldn't, that was the point - it's not like there haven't been agendas before, but mostly it was a joke.

You will have to explain the "joke" to me.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to xssve)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 6:58:30 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

That is not what I am arguing on the other thread at all.

What I did do was to point out that xssve was unable to produce any scientific evidence to support his voluminous, categorical yet stunningly uninformed views on gender, views he'd like us to believe are informed by science. No need to do that here is there? xssve's posts speak for themselves.

Anyways, tazzy is doing a wonderful job exposing them for the drivel they are.

Care to repeat any of those views for us here? 'Cause I don't think you were listening.

And frankly, I dunno what it is you're arguing over there, and no longer care, you just move the goal posts, but I'm pretty sure what you're attempting to imply is that there is no evidence for a biological theory of gender, which very the existence of GID would tend to repudiate, no gender, no gender identity, not in any genetic sense.

Could be psychological, could be social, could be a fad, but how many people kill themselves over a damn fad? It's there, most definitely, whether you can explain the mechanisms in detail or not, reality is not dependent on a scientific explanation for it, it just is, it's up to you to explain it.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 7:43:29 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Is gender reassignment the only treatment for depression? Teens in general have higher suicide rates, gay teens even higher. And I didn't say yea or nay, I said Diabetes isn't the same as GID, so to return to my original point, we are talking about gender reassignment being decided and acted upon before the age of consent, which was all I was trying to establish, that that's what we're talking about.

Good or bad, I haven't said, what did they do before reassignment was an option?

The suffered. They grew up feeling like freaks and others told them they were. They were labeled gay, queer, ect. Many boys were beaten. Many were forced into roles they simply could not accept until they committed suicide.

Hormonal therapy is one step which allows these kids to get through the torment of puberty.

Well unfortunately, I addressed all that in the other thread by mistake, the upshot was that people do like to fit in, teenagers undergoing individuation are under more pressure than anybody, and people can be fucking poultry, they'll peck you to death over the tiniest of perceived "flaws" - kids committing suicide over facebook harassment, etc.

At the same time, with gay kids for example, people are very good at pretending to be things they aren't so it's significant when somebody is willing to buck all the odds to do something that they know damn well is going to cause them nothing but grief in culture that offers nothing but rigid, binary gender assignments - you just don't do that unless there's a damn good reason for it, it's not a lark or a fad, it's taking on the whole damn world, so having taken it on once or twice myself for other reasons, I'm pretty sure they're sincere about it.

If it's not evidence of genetic influence on gender identity/sexual preference, it's a damn good reason to start looking for it - teenagers do other crazy things but bucking social approval, social death, is in a class by itself, the stress of that alone can kill you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I wouldn't, that was the point - it's not like there haven't been agendas before, but mostly it was a joke.

You will have to explain the "joke" to me.

You had to be there. :)

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/28/2011 7:51:10 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 8:38:55 AM

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Im curious, what is it you do for a living?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 3:47:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
It is important to understand that there are males who dress as females as part of a kink rather than as part of a personal identity.

That's a good point, I only know that one of them was transgender (the guy in the tutu), so my really really small sample size could even be much smaller.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
The folks who are trans more often than not, are not dressing for satisfaction of a kinky desire, but rather as an expression of authenticity and self.

Some among the pet play crowd, furries, lifestyle D/s and gorean lifestyle would make similar statements. Without an explanation of why this gender identity thing happens or how it's fundamentally different from other types of role-playing that people on this site engage in I'm having trouble figuring out why people on this site(including a certain boi) who would greet other forms of public role-playing with condemnation make an exception for this one.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 4:01:01 PM

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NM, I read it wrong.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 6:29:09 PM

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
The folks who are trans more often than not, are not dressing for satisfaction of a kinky desire, but rather as an expression of authenticity and self.

Got Steel
Some among the pet play crowd, furries, lifestyle D/s and gorean lifestyle would make similar statements. Without an explanation of why this gender identity thing happens or how it's fundamentally different from other types of role-playing that people on this site engage in I'm having trouble figuring out why people on this site(including a certain boi) who would greet other forms of public role-playing with condemnation make an exception for this one.

This brings up the question of why transgenders are subjected to the relentless persecution they are by many sections of the community - including those whose own experience of oppression ought to generate some solidarity or empathy. It saddens me to note that some feminists are among the worst offenders here.* Why do so many people put so much energy into judging and policing others' genders, and punishing those who fail to meet whatever (invariably flawed) standard they apply?

If we accept the view that homophobia is the outward expression of inner insecurities about one's sexuality or even tensions arising from unacknowledged (unacknowledgeable?) same sex attraction, is there any reason why the same logic and analysis shouldn't be applied here?

Given the extraordinary levels of punishment meted out to transgenders across the board, does it follow that the levels of gender insecurities are far more widespread and deep seated in our society than many of us are willing to acknowledge?

Do transgenders remind the rest of the population, at some deep level, that our 'natural' genders are just as constructed (un-natural) as transgenders' identities are thought to be? Is anti-transgender hate any more acceptable than homophobia or racism?

* For example, see 'Transsexual Empire' by separatist writer Janice Raymond. 150-odd pages of hate dressed up as feminism - appalling.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 7:56:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If we accept the view that homophobia is the outward expression of inner insecurities about one's sexuality or even tensions arising from unacknowledged (unacknowledgeable?) same sex attraction, is there any reason why the same logic and analysis shouldn't be applied here?

I don't think we accept that. Certainly that's been an effective propaganda tactic in the war for equal rights but I don't have any more reason to think that the people in the red neck three tooth towns I hiked through this year were afraid of homosexuals because of secret gay tendencies than I do that they were afraid of Muslims because of secret Islamic tendencies or afraid of Mexicans because of secret Hispanic tendencies.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 8:13:52 PM

kdsub

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quote:

homophobia

I agree...tweakabelle to many men and women the thought of two men or women being intimate is repulsive to them. It has nothing to do with ones sexual insecurity...They don't want to see it or them or be around them.

This does not make them homophobes

Butch

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/28/2011 10:51:20 PM

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I think that a number of the positions that generate that repulsion are ones by fear. Maybe we're talking about god fearing people who want to be sure that they hate all the right people or people from isolated homogeneous areas that are afraid of the unknown or the rest of society who gets influenced culturally on account of the legacy of the former groups. I do think that the revulsion in those cases is a reaction and the cause can be traced back to fear.

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/29/2011 12:07:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I think that a number of the positions that generate that repulsion are ones by fear. Maybe we're talking about god fearing people who want to be sure that they hate all the right people or people from isolated homogeneous areas that are afraid of the unknown or the rest of society who gets influenced culturally on account of the legacy of the former groups. I do think that the revulsion in those cases is a reaction and the cause can be traced back to fear.

In the example given, there are 2 people of the same gender kissing and a third person, the viewer, “repulsed”. It’s obvious that only one person here has a problem. That person is threatened by something that is harmless, none of their business. “Repulsed” people are threatened at some level or other – If they didn’t feel threatened then they wouldn’t react at all. They wouldn’t feel ‘repulsion or anything like that at all. They wouldn’t feel anything. They simply wouldn’t care. What is being threatened? What are they afraid of? It must be something inside themselves. Another common suggestion is hate is a consequence of ignorance and/or fear of difference. It's possible to mix this factor with fear insecurities about sexuality etc. Fear/insecurities about those sexually different is just one sub-set of fear of difference isn't it?

This seems to validate to some extent the position I outlined in my previous post. So I hope that we agree to some extent. I’m not trying to suggest that insecurities are the only possible cause of oppression of TGs. But I do believe that it is a substantial cause.

You seem to be hinting that these issues have an ideological foundation - many people argue that religion has been a major factor (or even the primary factor) in creating homophobia, sexism and the like. There's certainly considerable merit in that analysis, especially in relation to Judeo-Christian cultures.* There is an analysis that compares the way gender ambiguous people are treated in monotheist and polytheist cultures. It finds that generally polytheist cultures have positive attitudes while monotheist cultures tend to be intolerant. So, yes, there’s considerable merit in this view especially from a historical perspective.

Religion can be seen here to provide the language, the philosophical basis, the moral structure, the rationale through which the neurotic fears, insecurities etc are displaced and then expressed. Religion (to believers) also provides a way of coping with the underlying neurosis – when enough people have the same neurosis, it becomes a norm (eg. racism). Religion dissolves the category crisis challenge represented by ambiguity by authorising punishment of 'deviants'.

So, I would see this as complementing rather than opposing the analysis I offered in my previous post.

* It seems to me that, with many Christians and churches now openly challenging traditional views in this area, the impact of this argument is diminishing a little. While many bigots openly justify their bigotry by referring to religion/religious texts, increasing numbers of believers are saying that this is an abuse of religion. The Anglican Church is about to tear itself apart over this issue. My feeling is that this split between the religious deserves recognition. Therefore, statements about ongoing religious culpability require qualification.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/29/2011 12:19:35 AM >

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/29/2011 5:09:22 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

homophobia

I agree...tweakabelle to many men and women the thought of two men or women being intimate is repulsive to them. It has nothing to do with ones sexual insecurity...They don't want to see it or them or be around them.

This does not make them homophobes

Butch

How about displaced misogyny? For a man to be gay is to essentially "act like a woman" - you can't go around beating up women, even lesbians, and most of the violence is directed at gay men - are they just safer targets?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/29/2011 8:23:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
In the example given, there are 2 people of the same gender kissing and a third person, the viewer, “repulsed”. It’s obvious that only one person here has a problem. That person is threatened by something that is harmless, none of their business.

I don't remember an example where we are talking about one person with a problem, statistically the people with a problem are the majority. As for being harmless, yeah seems that way to me as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
This seems to validate to some extent the position I outlined in my previous post. So I hope that we agree to some extent. I’m not trying to suggest that insecurities are the only possible cause of oppression of TGs. But I do believe that it is a substantial cause.

What I'm seeing are a string of assumptions to get from the effect to your cause. Do you have data for this position? Certainly we can pull up a few examples *cough* Ted Haggard *cough* but is there anything that points to your cause being common, especially considering how uncommon homosexuality seems to be?

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RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/29/2011 8:26:52 PM

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Why do you say homosexuality is uncommon?

Wow, I didnt think it was that hard a question.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 12/29/2011 9:05:02 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Girl Scout troops disband over admittance of transg... - 12/29/2011 9:15:41 PM

kdsub

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I don't believe there is any fear involved... it just gives many the creeps thinking or seeing intimacy among the same sex. I am a firm believer you can not make or unmake someone gay.. Those that are not gay cannot at a base level understand the attraction between same sex individuals

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to GotSteel)

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