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Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 2:40:48 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		We've touched based on some controversial topics lately. Should the VA provide grave and memorial markers with Wiccan symbols for Wiccan soldiers? Should homosexuals be allowed to marry? Et cetera.

My question is this: Why is it when minority groups (social, not racial) demand the same rights and priveleges afforded to the majority and other minority groups, it is viewed as asking for preferential treatment?

I really do not understand the mindset that interprets those demands as requests for something more than others are receiving. How are homosexuals asking for anything more than anyone else receives when they ask their church marriages be recognized as marriages? How are Wiccans asking for anything more than anyone else receives when they ask their symbol of faith be included as permissable with others? Why are things like this viewed by people as having those lifestyles "forced down [their] throat"? How is asking for the same rights and priveleges that the vast majority of the rest of the populace receives asking for special treatment?

*meow*

EDIT: I acknowledge the way I phrased this is begging the question. I have a clear point of view on this and I'm not going to deny that.

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 5/31/2006 2:42:02 PM >
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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:09:02 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Hi Cat- most folks just want to live their live. These issues are interesting to a point- but in the larger picture- serve as diversions.

For instance- why no notice of the erosion of the middle class?

So many are a paycheck away from crises.

If the masses kept their eye on the ball- the ruling elite would have a harder time.

So here we are.

Most wish to live their life and be left alone.

You seldom hear- pay a man a fair days wage for a fair days work. Ild like to start with that one. [if I had a real voice]

Oh well.


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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:11:38 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		PS- if you get a chance- take a peek at Frontline and their recent show on pensions.

[PBS]

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:13:43 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		here it is. Frontline has some good ones-


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:26:32 PM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		The living wage is definately an issue I can riled about!

I've mentioned in this forums, and other places, that our minimum wage is ridiculously low in real dollars. Mostly I've discussed it in the context of illegal immigration, because I feel illegal immigration artificially depresses wages.

It's fairly easily to observe bottom pressure on wages has the greatest effect on all wages. The reason is fairly simple. The poorer people are, the more of their income they spend.

In my opinion, if politicians really wanted to spur the economy, it wouldn't involve giving tax breaks to people who are likely to save or invest the money; nor would it involve arcane tax credits. I would eliminate all taxes for those who earn less than 25-30k a year. Watch what happens when the very people who spend the most of their money (and also comprise one of the alrgest segments of the popular) suddenly have a few thousand more a year to spend.

By the by, to head off the pass, this would not be punishing those who earn just above that level. Due to the way tax brackets work, everyone would have that income taxed at 0% and only money made in excess of that level would be subject to taxation.

That all being said, I don't think securing equal rights for everyone is an unimportant distraction. I believe it is absolutely essential to deliver on the promise of liberty.

*meow*

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:40:22 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I view things as pretty good in the USA as far as equality.

Your post about a living wage is well thought out. I admire your writing skills.

The big boys have a sorta of shell game. Picture a guaudily dressed uncle sam- with glitter and outlandish garb on the board walk. He has 3 cups on the table. He shows us the ball- so we all beleive a ball can be had. He places the ball under a cup and mixes them around. Then we try to guess which one it is under. 

The US is sinking into a 3rd world status. It could take massive population decline on the global level to keep things afloat.

Meanwhile- the 3 cups mixes. ok now where the ball?

Just about every one of us here is bein duped by the ball mix. The one or two that aint- hiding under an "average" person lifestyle.

So here we are....

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 3:43:26 PM   
Yoursissymaid


Posts: 6
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Having spent twenty-eight years in the Canadian military, i believe that solders are buried because they died for their (Your) Country and not because of the religious beliefs. I could be wrong but isn't that all that counts?

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 4:01:57 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		One thing- that might need to change. If one is before a jury on a crime- the jurers are from your geographical community. In todays world- via satilite etc- you can live vicariously -elctronically among another group.

As far as if a partner of a gay or lesbien should be afforded that they can not be forced to testify at trial- as per traditional couples. I would agree with that. Bush said contracts between consenting adults -will be null and void. There are over 1000 items per spousal.

Cultural- I will hear- did he marry a woman or a man. So if you have to ask- that tells you where we are. When I lived with Bob for 7 years- every child within 5 blocks could tell you thats where the two gay guys lived.  We had no rainbow flag out- nothing like that.

I have heard of the blood relatives closing out the gay partner in health and funeral and inheritance items. Even when the partners spelled it out in a contract.

Oh well.    


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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 4:07:18 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		They died for what their country represents--part of which, would be, the right to practice any faith they wish.

If others are allowed to illustrate symbols of their belief on plaques, EVERYONE is entitled to that right.  It could go either way, imo...allow them all or don't allow any.

Sorry to sidetrack, just addressing that particular post.

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 4:41:06 PM   
leakylee


Posts: 747
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		In some cases you have no choice, but to close out the gay partner. The family didn't close her out, but legally there was no alternative. When my aunt died, we had no choice but to deal with all the arrangements for her funeral within the family. Even though she had a life partner that had helped to raise her son, her partner had no say what so ever over the disposal of my aunt's assets, or in reguards to my cousin. This boggles the mind, but such is the way that the system operates.

lee


_____________________________

I am so not right, that I left..

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 4:46:10 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Thats terrible. I am sorry.

Death brings out the bazarre in people.

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 5/31/2006 4:49:10 PM   
leakylee


Posts: 747
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you, just makes you wonder why in all get out the laws work the way they do.

lee


_____________________________

I am so not right, that I left..

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 12:56:08 AM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		I have no problem with any group having equality.
Sometimes that equality, can idealogically conflict with others, but idealogy does not have to change everyday reality.
In a few cases it can actually be a real change to some things. I had a fellow on my crew that was Muslim. I was fine with him taking his prayer times. And he was fine with tolerating our non Muslim ways.
I do take issue of equality being something that forces me or others, to do things they prefer not to, and have no real reason to do.
The concept of equality in a complex society of law, can become burdonsome and frictional, if the concept of equality is defined too broadly. It is sort of a problem for the ones who arrived later ( crudely put ). The ones there first, that created and built the society and law, are generally equal in it ( or powerful enough to have made the law and society ). As others arrive, or the formerly silent find voice, they feel unequal. Then it has to be decided, do we broaden our society and laws to make them equal? Do we say they are equal in our society, but sort of outside the norms? Often we need only apply our present laws equally, without bias.  Often it is the application of laws, not the word or spirit of them that is unequal. Usually nothing more than simple acceptance of reality  provides equality.
It is more in heart and mind of the majority, that equality arrives.

Equality is freedom to be ones self if it harms no other. Forces no other to do what they wish not to. This does not include the right of someone to not hire on the basis of race. Or things like that. That is not reality, it is idealogy. It does not allow one to presume a gay teacher, is teaching children to be gay. That is just ignorance.

One persons equality ( if they know what equality means ) should never intrude on anothers.

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 2:04:18 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I have yet to see a society that has equality. Making laws to promote equality are basically sops to keep people from being restless because equality has to be in the minds of the people for it to exist and not in the laws.

One British politician put it correctly as far as I can see. By the time an injustice has been rectified by a statute it is being rubber stamped by the legislature because the people have already made the decision.

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 2:15:06 AM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I have yet to see a society that has equality. Making laws to promote equality are basically sops to keep people from being restless because equality has to be in the minds of the people for it to exist and not in the laws.

One British politician put it correctly as far as I can see. By the time an injustice has been rectified by a statute it is being rubber stamped by the legislature because the people have already made the decision.


Yes, that is what I meant by it arrives in the heart and mind of the majority. What is sops?

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 2:40:10 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

Yes, that is what I meant by it arrives in the heart and mind of the majority. What is sops?



Giving candy to a child to keep it quiet. Making false promises to someone for an easy life. Anything that really doesn't cost you much but helps you avoid confrontation for another day (and hopefully longer).

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 3:11:36 AM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

Yes, that is what I meant by it arrives in the heart and mind of the majority. What is sops?



Giving candy to a child to keep it quiet. Making false promises to someone for an easy life. Anything that really doesn't cost you much but helps you avoid confrontation for another day (and hopefully longer).


Ohhhhhh. Good politics as opposed to actual good governance. I get it.


< Message edited by Kedikat -- 6/1/2006 3:12:44 AM >

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 5:22:47 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you Kedikat. This was a well thought out post and I certainly appreciate the thoughts.

*meow*

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 5:31:11 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		The USA is falling into a third world status and its because the middle class is being shut out. Before long there will only be the rich and the poor who serve them. In the last 20 years I've seen alot of change in this country and I can't say its all for the better. Also the separation of church and state is rapidly becoming a very thin line and that disturbs me greatly. I have actually thought about moving to Canada because I so disagree with the politics of my own country. I'm sure that alot of other people have thought the same thing.

~Lashra

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RE: Special Standards or Equality? - 6/1/2006 8:43:13 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Lashra , bingo on your post.

[tho] the world is looking to folks like us- to fix the mess. So going to Canada isnt necesarily the answere.

What we do to others in foriegn lands- we will do to own own people. A trickle down if sorts. IE- New Orleans. Black water.

Makes one want the Carter days back....

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