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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:30:26 AM   
provfivetine


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This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:30:53 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
imo, if you couldnt earn a living from being an artist, it was because you didnt offer what people wanted, that and peoples taste changes so artists tend to go out of favor, not because of piracy.. Few artists ever earn a living at it due to the fact that there are better artists that are their competition..


Well, then your opinion would be silly. I had three albums distributed worldwide, with rapidly increasing product...for which I wasn't getting the cash, because it was copied. Presumably because people liked it...

I instead concentrated on performance, also quite successfully, thank you very much, until I got tired of traveling all the time and getting home in the middle of the night more often than not. I cut back on my performing, promoted concerts, when into music wholesale, and started artists co-operatives in Boston and New York. I started teaching college music by invitation at local four local colleges.

When piracy also affected the mainstream wholesale markets, I started my own consulting practice, and while all this was going on, was noticed for my writing, worked a great deal free lance, published dozens of columns, articles, and marketing materials, until I was offered a very good deal to teach professional writing. Today, I write a LOT of private (protected) online content.

If you're done with the obnoxious personal shots, the issue is the bill and piracy.

Billions are lost to piracy each year. My experience is anecdotal, but dismissing it changes nothing.

that is my opinion and i am entitled to it and that is just the way the world works, it not a personal shot. There are lots of artists that were temporarily popular but faded quickly... Its just a fact that few artists have longevity.. It also takes determination and staying in front of the audience which you apparently no longer wanted to do, thats your choice but dont blame anyone else for that decision.. And what you complain of again had nothing to do with the internet. If you publish online now protected then that just shows that there are ways to do that without infringing on everyone elses rights..

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:32:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

Riiight.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:34:00 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

And what you complain of again had nothing to do with the internet.


And that's where you're wrong again.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:35:00 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.


Only if THIS bill is the only POSSIBLE way to protect IP rights.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:36:25 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

theres something being misconstrued here, and that is the right of people to think differently

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:41:38 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

This is the same argument people used to oppose the health care bill, taz. "Not THIS bill" -- but then WHAT bill? Oh...yeah....nothing.


I think many see it as I do.

Nothing was done about cassettes, which allowed you to dub a whole cassette, tape from the radio, tape from a live concert.

And those who produced these recordable cassettes were the same one's who are representing those artists.

CD's came out. Better quality, harder to copy.. for a while.

Sony makes cd rippers.

Sony Audio CD Burner 7.6.84

Sony Audio CD Burner is the perfect software for ripping, converting or burning your favorite music. It allows you to save your CD`s to all kinds of music formats like MP3, WMA, OGG, APE, WAV, VQF and then play them back on almost any device. Rip and Burn can be used for creating MP3`s from your CD`s and also converting other music formats to MP3 (like wav to mp3) or back and forth. Sonytime Music Burner Studio is ease burn MP3, WMA, MP4, M4A, MP2, APE, VQF, APE, OGG, AAC to CD and converting all audio formats to MP3 is ease burn MP3, WMA, MP4, M4A, MP2, APE, VQF, APE, OGG, AAC to CD and converting all audio formats to MP3 is so easy, with this MP4 to MP3 conversion and M4A to MP3 conversion software. How to convert M4A file to MP3 will never confused you.

Sony also has a long list of musical artists.

So, why is Sony producing this product which allows people to do exactly what Sony, and their artists, are complaining about?

But, you will note that Sony has pulled away from this bill, in part. One division did, three others did notl... then went back into support of it.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/330900/sony-nintendo-pull-piracy-act-support-did-anonymous-threat-push-decision/

Can we discuss the level of hypocrisy here?

I understand your being upset. What I dont understand is the heavy handed treatment of private citizens for utilizing products the giants in both the music industry and the computer industry are pushing.


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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:45:24 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

What I dont understand is the heavy handed treatment of private citizens for utilizing products the giants in both the music industry and the computer industry are pushing.


Please. Duplicating and distributing copyrighted material is illegal. "But I have the tools!" is just silly.

I own knives. I don't use them illegally. If I did, you wouldn't question the manufacturers.

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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:46:49 AM   
provfivetine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

theres something being misconstrued here, and that is the right of people to think differently


No. There is no middle ground in this debate. Either IP (songs, melodies, ideas, recipes, images, arguments, theorems, algorithms, etc.) are protected or they are not protected. It's a very simple concept. There is no difference (if you believe in IP rights) between downloading an album off the internet and stealing an album from the store.

You can think differently if you'd like to, but that would be make you a hypocrite.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:47:57 AM   
tazzygirl


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But why is the company who is complaining about the duplication making items that allow said duplication to happen?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 11:50:10 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

No. There is no middle ground in this debate. Either IP (songs, melodies, ideas, recipes, images, arguments, theorems, algorithms, etc.) are protected or they are not protected. It's a very simple concept. There is no difference (if you believe in IP rights) between downloading an album off the internet and stealing an album from the store.

You can think differently if you'd like to, but that would be make you a hypocrite.


I dont like drunk drivers. If a law comes out that says drunk drivers will be shot on sight once they blow above 0.8... am I not allowed to complain about the punishment if I dont agree with it?

I CAN still not like drunk drivers.

I CAN still like the fact that we are trying to stop them.

I CAN hold on to the belief that the punishment does not fit the crime.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:00:54 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine


No. There is no middle ground in this debate. Either IP (songs, melodies, ideas, recipes, images, arguments, theorems, algorithms, etc.) are protected or they are not protected. It's a very simple concept. There is no difference (if you believe in IP rights) between downloading an album off the internet and stealing an album from the store.

You can think differently if you'd like to, but that would be make you a hypocrite.


Your argument is moot there is ALWAYS middle ground
you are using IP in your avatar. do you have permission from Futurama to use it?? Did you draw it, do you have a license?
If Im a hypcrite in your eyes... BFD



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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:02:46 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But why is the company who is complaining about the duplication making items that allow said duplication to happen?

:) levity introduction
they want you to copy anything and everything, as long as it doesn't have SONY in the description/title/logo.


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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:12:32 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
No. There is no middle ground in this debate. Either IP (songs, melodies, ideas, recipes, images, arguments, theorems, algorithms, etc.) are protected or they are not protected. It's a very simple concept. There is no difference (if you believe in IP rights) between downloading an album off the internet and stealing an album from the store.

You can think differently if you'd like to, but that would be make you a hypocrite.


Your argument is moot there is ALWAYS middle ground
you are using IP in your avatar. do you have permission from Futurama to use it?? Did you draw it, do you have a license?
If Im a hypcrite in your eyes... BFD

Its also about laws used abusively.. here is one example and that is even before these SPA & PIPA are passed..

"You have a piece of intellectual property that's not really copyrighted and one of the labels that's been supporting SOPA yanks it off the Internet"
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/12/takedowns-and-lawsuits-have-already-started-fight-against-sopa/46242/
"

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:16:06 PM   
Lucylastic


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Blog from law prefessor Michael Geist at huffpo today
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/michael-geist/sopa-protest_b_1210467.html?ref=canada

Some of the Internet's leading websites, including Wikipedia, Reddit, Mozilla, WordPress, and BoingBoing, will go dark today to protest against the Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) and the Protect IP Act (PIPA). The U.S. bills have generated massive public protest over proposed provisions that could cause enormous harm to the Internet and freedom of speech. My blog will join the protest by going dark tomorrow. While there is little that Canadians can do to influence U.S. legislation, there are many reasons why I think it is important for Canadians to participate.

First, the SOPA provisions are designed to have an extra-territorial effect that manifests itself particularly strongly in Canada. As I discussed in a column last year, SOPA treats all dot-com, dot-net, and dot-org domain as domestic domain names for U.S. law purposes. Moreover, it defines "domestic Internet protocol addresses" -- the numeric strings that constitute the actual address of a website or Internet connection -- as "an Internet Protocol address for which the corresponding Internet Protocol allocation entity is located within a judicial district of the United States."

Yet IP addresses are allocated by regional organizations, not national ones. The allocation entity located in the U.S. is called the American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN). Its territory includes the U.S., Canada, and 20 Caribbean nations. This bill treats all IP addresses in this region as domestic for U.S. law purposes. To put this is context, every Canadian Internet provider relies on ARIN for its block of IP addresses. In fact, ARIN even allocates the block of IP addresses used by federal and provincial governments. The U.S. bill would treat them all as domestic for U.S. law purposes.

Second, Canadian businesses and websites could easily find themselves targeted by SOPA. The bill grants the U.S. "in rem" jurisdiction over any website that does not have a domestic jurisdictional connection. For those sites, the U.S. grants jurisdiction over the property of the site and opens the door to court orders requiring Internet providers to block the site and Internet search engines to stop linking to it.

Should a Canadian website owner wish to challenge the court order, U.S. law asserts itself in another way, since in order for an owner to file a challenge (described as a "counter notification"), the owner must first consent to the jurisdiction of the U.S. courts.

Third, millions of Canadians rely on the legitimate sites that are affected by the legislation. Whether creating a Wikipedia entry, posting a comment on Reddit, running a WordPress blog, participating in an open source software project, or reading a posting on BoingBoing, the lifeblood of the Internet is a direct target of SOPA. If Canadians remain silent, they may ultimately find the sites and services they rely upon silenced by this legislation.

Fourth, the U.S. intellectual property strategy has long been premised on exporting its rules to other countries, including Canada. Spain's recent anti-piracy legislation that bears similarities to SOPA is the direct result of U.S. threats of retaliation if it did not pass U.S.-backed laws. Canada has a history of similar experiences. The same forces that have lobbied for SOPA and PIPA in the United States are the primary lobbyists behind the digital lock provisions in Bill C-11 and the recent submission to the U.S. government arguing that Canada should not be admitted to the Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations until it complies with U.S. copyright demands.

Moreover, the Wikileaks cables documented relentless U.S. pressure in Canada including revelations that former Industry Minister Maxime Bernier raised the possibility of leaking the copyright bill to U.S. officials before it was to be tabled it in the House of Commons, former Industry Minister Tony Clement's director of policy Zoe Addington encouraged the U.S. to pressure Canada by elevating it on a piracy watch list, Privy Council Office official Ailish Johnson disclosed the content of ministerial mandate letters, and former RCMP national coordinator for intellectual property crime Andris Zarins advised the U.S. that the government was working on a separate intellectual property enforcement bill.

SOPA virtually guarantees that this will continue. Not only is it likely that the U.S. will begin to incorporate SOPA-like provisions into its IP demands, but SOPA makes it a matter of U.S. law to ensure that intellectual property protection is a significant component of U.S. foreign policy and grants more resources to U.S. embassies around the world to increase their involvement in foreign legal reform.

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:33:22 PM   
tazzygirl


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In my opinion, the idea of coming down harder on copy right infringement is a great idea. Using this bill to do so is a bad one.

Something I found.. from a writer's perspective that I had not considered...

Prepare for the Long Haul

My gut tells me this fight is just beginning. This isn’t the first time the U.S. government or big businesses have attempted to take control of the Internet or pass censorship legislation and it won’t be the last. As a copyright holder and content creator, I am concerned about copyright theft and want to see online piracy curbed but not at the cost of blacklisting or censorship, especially since most objective legal experts agree that SOPA and PIPA give the government and big corporations undue power while putting free speech at risk. These experts have also stressed that the bills do absolutely nothing to stop piracy because there are glaring loopholes that these pirates can easily use.

I’m also not crazy about taking time away from Writing Forward’s focus, which is, of course, creative writing. But censorship is specifically dangerous to writers and artists, and in today’s market, we writers need the Internet as it has become the foremost tool in distributing, marketing, and promoting written works. I feel strongly that this issue is critical and of great concern to writers, so I hope you will join me in standing against any attempt at censorship or internet blacklisting.

And as always, I hope you keep writing.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:37:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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I am a prolific and well-published author, including often about controversial topics. I have never--NEVER--been threatened with censorship. Nor does this writer cite any instances.

I HAVE quite frequently had my work copied without permission (and to be fair, with permission as well).


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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 12:47:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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It should make for an interesting series of court battles.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 1:29:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

No. That is a false dichotony.

You will not find anyone more staunchly n favor of IP rights (my future economic well being depends on them). However the way PIPA/SOPA go about protecting those rights is ridiculous.

The DCMA was abused and it only allowed forced take down of US based sites what happens when someone somewhere can file a lawsuit against a foreign website and force it to be taken out of the DNS system? What happens if a religious nut who hates our lifestyle creates an account and posts an infringing picture?

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 2:49:58 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine
This issue is being misconstrued by the opponents of this bill.

The contention is simple: should intellectual property rights be protected or not?

The only rational position to take here is one the following two positions:
(1) I do believe in intellectual property rights and I support this bill.
(2) I do NOT believe in intellectual property rights and I oppose this bill.

If you say: "I believe in intellectual property rights, but I oppose this bill," then you are contradicting yourself.

The real issue is that it is a scam, a con. Con men succeed in their evil schemes because the marks are more stupid than the con men.

Ever since Hermes introduced trade, people have traded physical substances and labor. The introduction of currency made such trade easier - and made crime more profitable for the criminals.

Musicians and acting groups were hired by theaters and kings to perform labor. There were no copyright trolls hiding behind the bushes intending to sue any farmer or smith they heard sing a copyrighted song in those days.

The theaters in turn earned their money by renting out seats in their theater. Not by selling music, I reiterate, but by renting out a physical product.

A coffee house owner would hire a teller of stories to perform labor. In turn the coffee house owner would earn his money by selling coffee to the people who entered his coffee house. Again: the story teller performs labor and his boss sells a physical product. There were no copyright trolls hiding below the windows intend on suing a father who retold the story to his wife and children.

An author performed labor for the boss, his publisher, and his boss earned his money by selling paper. Again: the author performs labor and his boss sells a physical product. There were no copyright trolls hiding below the school desks intend on suing the teacher who read from such a book to her class.

A book could be bought, read, given to a friend, read, given to a second friend, ad infinitum without copyright trolls extorting money for each person who read the book. Why not? Because information is intangible and cannot be sold. The only thing that can be sold is a physical product and that can be sold only once.

Of course there are always people who try to scam people out of their money. A perfect way to get more for a product than it is worth, is to monopolize it. A farmer who can monopolize the owning of cows corners both the dairy and the meat market. He can ask far higher prices for his product than he could if he had competition.

Some centuries ago one or more scam artists had the truly brilliant idea to corner the book market by monopolizing books, which are a physical product. In order to do this the principle of copyright was introduced and publishers bought the exclusive right to publish a book from authors who thereby unwittingly sold their soul as well. If anyone now wanted to buy the book Robinson Crusoe, he would have to pay the prize the one publisher extorted for he could not go to another publisher and buy it more cheaply. This scam was later extended to auditory and visual products (gramophone disks and film, both physical things).
There were no copyright trolls peeping through the letter slot in the door intend on suing someone who copied such a book and gave the copy to a relative or friend. In fact, I rather think that anyone could copy such a book tens of thousands of times and give them away - as long as he did not sell them.

So what we see throughout the ages is that it are always physical products and labor that are sold or rented out.

Enter the twentieth century. Scam artists are of all times and all scam artists that are any good believe their own lies. One of them scam artists got the idea to sell not the physical product but information. The marks, being as required more stupid than the scam artist, bought the scam and extended copyright to information, an intangible thing.

Now anybody who takes out an advertisement in a paper, or an advertisement spot on radio and television has got to pay for it, not so? And as a result he hopes to sell more of his physical products or labor, not so? And it is well established that songs that do not appear on the radio do not sell well, whereas those that do appear on the radio often do. One of the biggest scams in history is that these scam artists convinced the proprietors of radio or television companies that instead of them being paid for advertisements in the form of songs in order to persuade the listener to buy a gramophone disk (a physical product), that instead they had to pay the advertiser. Of course the marks, being stupid by definition, fell for the scam. Ever since they have been paying through the nose.

Selling information is like a scam artist baker not selling bread, but selling baked air. And the bigger scam is selling that baked air not only once, like a bread, but many times. (Incidentally, I used to have a neighbor who sub-rented her room out not to a single party but to two different people at the same time. There was some disgruntlement, I tell you.)

As it so happens, there is legal precedent to the issue of selling baked air. Not in western legal history, but in Arabic legal history, to wit: in the "One thousand and one nights".
The scam artist baker was happily scamming people, but his illegal profits did not satisfy him; he wanted to have more money. Pondering means to obtain more money, he noticed someone passing by his bakery every morning, stopping briefly and inhaling deeply the baked air coming from his bakery before moving on. So he addressed the fellow and demanded money from him. This fellow, however, was no mark and refused to pay for baked air. So the scam artist baker, as any good scam artist believing in his own scam, went to the cadi (i.e. a judge). However, he was too miserly to bribe the cadi. So the cadi, having no motive to be partial, was impartial and rejected the claim of the scam artist baker. But the cadi went even a bit further than that. He sent his men to collect the weights used by the baker to weigh his bread. And the scam artist baker, who had scraped away lead from the weights in order to scam his customers, was caught at the fraud and sentenced accordingly.

Now, I too am a scam artist and - however much CM may deny it - all the information contained in this post is copyrighted, including the fact that today I ate a pizza and a liter of yoghurt, and anyone - yes, I said ANYONE, including wastebins - who quotes or copies or transmits any part of this information in whatever form, infringes on my copyright and therefore owes me three billion dollars for each such infringement.

< Message edited by Rule -- 1/18/2012 3:02:34 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 120
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