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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 2:49:52 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That is what we have.

A republic is a form of government in which the people, or some significant portion of them, have supreme control over the government and where offices of state are elected or chosen by elected people.

We can get into arguing the minutiae, but a democracy is generally were the people directly vote, while a Republic is where they indirectly affect government through elected officials.

This Republic was founded with the concept that the emotions of the masses should be tempered by time, distance and other competing interests.  That's why "the People's House" is the House of Reps, and they have only a two year term, and aren't involved in approving Presidential appointments and Court members.

The Senate was the House of the States, and had those responsibilities, but they can't do much else that requires tax monies without the approval of "the People's House".

The Senate is no longer the House of the States, since direct election of Senators, and since the Federal government was able to implement income taxes, has bribed the states into subservience with their own money.

The President pretty much does what he wants now, without the express approval of either house, or the States, and keeps in power and good graces of "the people" through polling and propaganda.

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.

Firm


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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 2:55:28 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

No!.....

As of right now.....good idea or bad?

Damnit!

Since ya gotta have an answer now, without giving me time to contemplate and reflect, gather information, and see the results ...

Yes ... good thing.

Firm


We`ll have to revisit this question later.......

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/22/2012 2:56:41 PM >

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:00:48 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

All the current articles keep talking about who will end up with the majority of GOP electoral votes.  What if...

If NO candidate wins a majority of votes cast, it goes to multiple ballots.  That destroyed the Dems in 1968, and the Dems in 1968 were a lot stronger and more cohesive than the GOP is today.

The primary is damaging enough so far.  In order to attack Romney, Gingrich is turning the conventional GOP platform plank of free commerce on its ear.  He's also undermining the concept of capital gains being taxed less than ordinary income, by pointing out that Mitt pays only 15% taxes.  Ron Paul's supporters are complaining (correctly IMO) that Paul's not getting enough coverage.  Santorum's trying to establish himself as the sole true conservative and is trying to claim that a moderate would have no chance in the general.  In other words, each is peddling his peculiar brand of reality.  I expect Mitt to take off the gloves (har har) soon, and begin trashing Gingrich in negative ads.

Unless one of the Final Four withdraws, I expect Paul to pull in 10%-20%.  Santorum will pull 15%-25%.  That leaves Gingrich and Romney only 55%-75% between them, and it's not inconceivable that neither one will get the magic 50%.


Ron Paul just said: " I will drop out if I don't come in at least second in Virginia."

Maybe that will help Santorum or Gingrich now?


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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:23:54 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.


I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:25:14 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Because the focus was on getting past Obama , not splitting the "right" in half???

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:26:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

While it's messy, and perhaps not at all what the GOP intended (other than to placate its conservatives), it *is* democracy.

True.

But it is suppose to be a Republic.

Firm


In that case, they made a mistake.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/22/2012 3:27:15 PM >

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:35:41 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

All the current articles keep talking about who will end up with the majority of GOP electoral votes.  What if...

If NO candidate wins a majority of votes cast, it goes to multiple ballots.  That destroyed the Dems in 1968, and the Dems in 1968 were a lot stronger and more cohesive than the GOP is today.

The primary is damaging enough so far.  In order to attack Romney, Gingrich is turning the conventional GOP platform plank of free commerce on its ear.  He's also undermining the concept of capital gains being taxed less than ordinary income, by pointing out that Mitt pays only 15% taxes.  Ron Paul's supporters are complaining (correctly IMO) that Paul's not getting enough coverage.  Santorum's trying to establish himself as the sole true conservative and is trying to claim that a moderate would have no chance in the general.  In other words, each is peddling his peculiar brand of reality.  I expect Mitt to take off the gloves (har har) soon, and begin trashing Gingrich in negative ads.

Unless one of the Final Four withdraws, I expect Paul to pull in 10%-20%.  Santorum will pull 15%-25%.  That leaves Gingrich and Romney only 55%-75% between them, and it's not inconceivable that neither one will get the magic 50%.


Ron Paul just said: " I will drop out if I don't come in at least second in Virginia."

Maybe that will help Santorum or Gingrich now?



Um.  Romney and Paul are the ONLY GOP candidates left on the Virginia ballot: http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-13/politics/politics_virginia-gop-primary-ballot_1_judge-rules-virginia-ruling-primary-ballot?_s=PM:POLITICS

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:40:36 PM   
Icarys


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quote:


Um. Romney and Paul are the ONLY GOP candidates left on the Virginia ballot: http://articles.cnn.com/2012-01-13/politics/politics_virginia-gop-primary-ballot_1_judge-rules-virginia-ruling-primary-ballot?_s=PM:POLITICS

Yeah I know, it was a joke. :)


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:44:15 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		damn that took me a while..LMAO
funny:)

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 3:46:58 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I'm hoping that Santorum will "see the light" and leave after not doing well there.



Well, Ron Paul and Mitt are not going to drop out.  Right now, Gingrich has momentum and will not drop out as long as he's got a good shot.  Santorum is the most likely to leave - he's also the most likely to run out of money.

Santorum's hope is that Romney carpet bombs Gingrich and kills his momentum.  If Gingrich loses votes, Santorum is their likely recipient.

I foresee the primary getting a nastier tone.  Gingrich will be in his element. 



_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:10:18 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.


I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

Yup,organized and systematic disruption of town-halls with the sole purpose of killing the debate out-right.

An attack on our democratic traditions really.

If that wasn`t mob politics,I don`t know what is.

The tea-packer-cloaked republicans who did that were enemies of this ideal,captured by Norman Rockwell.








< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/22/2012 4:15:01 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:12:30 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.


I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

I've been expressing them long before Obama and the TEA parties, tyvm.

Firm

edited to add:

Here's were I was discussing this very issue with dcnovice, back in March 2007.  Read the entire page, the posts are short and look at my post 179, where I say the very same thing I have said here, prior to Obama and prior to TEA parties.




< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 1/22/2012 4:19:09 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:26:03 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Because the focus was on getting past Obama , not splitting the "right" in half???


The first discussion on a search of mob rules...

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 9:03:15 PM

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2746343

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:33:14 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.


I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

I've been expressing them long before Obama and the TEA parties, tyvm.

Firm

edited to add:

Here's were I was discussing this very issue with dcnovice, back in March 2007.  Read the entire page, the posts are short and look at my post 179, where I say the very same thing I have said here, prior to Obama and prior to TEA parties.





You spoke about the House and Senate then... that had nothing to do with my post.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:33:52 PM   
SilverBoat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yup,organized and systematic disruption of town-halls with the sole purpose of killing the debate out-right.

An attack on our democratic traditions really.

If that wasn`t mob politics,I don`t know what is.

The tea-packer-cloaked republicans who did that were enemies of this ideal,captured by Norman Rockwell.



And it's perhaps worth mention that the same sort of tactics have been pursued by rightwingnutz in chatsite discussions, newsite comments, etc, where they can spawn legions of sockpuppets too.

...

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 4:36:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

And it's perhaps worth mention that the same sort of tactics have been pursued by rightwingnutz in chatsite discussions, newsite comments, etc, where they can spawn legions of sockpuppets too.


That is a choice one makes, independent of the political process. You have every right to be heard, and to respectfully discuss pertinent issues with your representatives in a town hall meeting.... if you feel ganged up on a political board, you have the right to go elsewhere.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 5:34:23 PM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

And it's perhaps worth mention that the same sort of tactics have been pursued by rightwingnutz in chatsite discussions, newsite comments, etc, where they can spawn legions of sockpuppets too.


That is a choice one makes, independent of the political process. You have every right to be heard, and to respectfully discuss pertinent issues with your representatives in a town hall meeting.... if you feel ganged up on a political board, you have the right to go elsewhere.


Hunh? ... I'm not sure if you understood what I meant ... And in any case, if the discussions' format, context, moderation (if any), etc were anything approaching reasonably worthwhile, I usually think it's better to slug matters out, preferably with civility and logic, reluctantly with rhetoric, and hopefully reach some sort of mutually acceptable compromise. That's not always possible with some of the more insanely zero-sum idiots, but sometimes it's worth trying. And sometimes, there turns out to be lots of behind-the-scenes whining, pandering, scheming, cliques, etc. Oh, well, that's the nature of some lesser humans.

What I'd suggest, though, is to scan a few news items at, say, Yahoo, and then scroll down to the comment(s). Quite often, the news story might be about something like so-n-so cured of cancer, and the very first comment will be something like blaming Obamamaomau for causing the cancer. Then check the comments again, a while later, and often enough, much of the comments are juvenile political snarking, and perhaps more often than not, the whole dicussion collapses under hundreds of rightwing spams swamping the other posts. Or, sometimes especially if it's a topic unfavorable to rightwing interests, they'll spam for a while and then give up.

I've seen that sort of tactic at chatsites too (not saying anything specific about here). Kink sites sometimes seem more resistant to that sort of thing by either 'side' of politics, but not completely immune.

The point, perhaps, is that discussion of the tactics some people and groups employ in order to influence discussions is relevant to the discussions, no? And perhaps some of those people and groups would rather not have that happen?

...

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RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 5:35:12 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

In other words, we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.


I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

I've been expressing them long before Obama and the TEA parties, tyvm.

Firm

edited to add:

Here's were I was discussing this very issue with dcnovice, back in March 2007.  Read the entire page, the posts are short and look at my post 179, where I say the very same thing I have said here, prior to Obama and prior to TEA parties.


You spoke about the House and Senate then... that had nothing to do with my post.

Not about your post?  Not about a Democracy v a Republic?

Look above, where you quoted our conversation.  I said:

we are seriously close to a mob democracy, with only a few vestiges of any Republican form of government around here.

You insinuated that this was some "new" argument on my part, due to partisanship, and that I didn't say anything like this until Obama was in office, and the rise of the TEA parties:

I truly have to wonder why these thoughts were not expressed when the Tea Party came into being.

Then I gave you a link to a conversation that I had with dcnovice in 2007, about the very same thing.

I guess you couldn't be bothered to read down to post 179 (which I directly suggested you do), where I specifically say:

They threw out the baby with the bath water.  They forgot we had a republic, and wanted us to be a democracy.

The genesis and reasoning for both of these conversations are changes to the House and Senate, and how the power of the original Republic system has been corrupted.

uh huh.  Just admit that your attempted partisan snark didn't work tazzy, and we can go on to the next time.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 5:39:35 PM   
Icarys


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_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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http://alturl.com/mog7m

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The possibility that the GOP does NOT want to face. - 1/22/2012 5:43:47 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'm not so sure a chaotic convention would be a bad thing, Steve. I don't believe the analogy holds. In '68, the convention reflected a much broader culture war in progress. Here, a lot of people just don't like Mitt.

I doubt it will happen. It's only January. If the race still looks like this in March, or if, God permit, California should matter in a primary come June, then we'll see.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 40
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