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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 4:12:37 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		Hmmm, maybe forming a committee will solve things. Give 'em a big budget too, and make them not accountable to Congress. Yeah, that's the ticket!

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 7:21:57 PM   
Edwynn


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Did the poorest granny in the neighborhood step on that mortgage lender's face and force him to sign the mortgage that his lender's own lawyers were paid $5,000-$10,000 to write? And she understood every codicil, right?

I did not say it was "absolutely necessary," you did. You can't understand your own words, much less anyone else's.

As for the others, who approached whom, here?

These home owners did not call the re-finance folks, it was the other way around. Phone-to-phone in the better neighborhoods, door-to-door otherwise.


At the time that the re-finance in question here was sold (after 2 months of relentless calls and letters, from the prospective lender, not the prospective borrower) the (new) loan value was, at a most conservative estimate, more than  $90,000 below market value of the house, in 2004. Again, the house value estimation being below current assessment for this purpose by at least $20k, even in that.

Such a position was considered conservative and sound, in times past, and that is what everyone in question based it upon.

The actions of these lenders even at the time and then subsequently (from irresponsible borrowers of their choosing) resulted in the deterioration of value across the board, their selling of no-doc loans to eager Wall Street investment bank and even commercial bank buyers for transformation into CDOs making piles of money for the sellers, in the process of reducing house equity for all.


Are you being irresponsible for selling some stocks from the retirement account? Are you irresponsible for selling some bonds? Are you irresponsible for taking some money out of your mutual fund money market account or your savings or checking account? Is there any way to pay bills you have paid on time all your life aside from this in retirement?  Is there any reason that some (who know nothing of the financial system) keep stupidly asking why people are taking out of their house what they have put into all their life, only to now have it chopped out from under them by gross failure of fiduciary duty by the financial intermediaries assigned to the task and then to have internet fuckwits call them (the responsible equity holders) out on it at the behest of the banks and their PR?


Everything you say makes sense after 2008. Everything you say also goes against anything that was taught and promulgated prior to that for many centuries, in all the textbooks and financial advisory magazines. The financial industry were the directors of change here, not the borrowers.













< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 8:13:10 PM >

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 7:47:01 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		you are contradicting your self now... you said they bought that big shack when they were 71, not that they put money into it all their life .. Signing for a $5-600,000 mortgage at 71 is not prudent by any stretch of the imagination.. People that age usually downsize, not upsize.. People dont understand that when they sign for that amount, they have to pay it at some point? There is something called being willfully blind.. your granny wanted a big fancy house for all her family to come visit her cuz she was lonely.. Why didnt you or some of your family talk her out of that? why didnt you have a lawyer representing her look over all the docs before she bought the house and signed the mortgage docs? She had 8 kids.. you would think at least one would have been very concerned about her doing that at her age..

I cant imagine spending that kind of money on a house at any age.. I guess i just dont think big enough..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 8:09:49 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Hmmm. I think every single mortgage I have ever gotten ( about 6), I contacted the bank, not vice versa. Not sure where you get your info, edwynn, but I think you are ill informed.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 8:37:01 PM   
Edwynn


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I am informed by r/l experience in this case, and that is absolutely how it was. These people only actively sought a re-finance on their own once in their life, for re-roofing on another house, 30 years ago. 

Your information concerning your own experience in that regard explains quite allot, I'll say that.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 8:47:28 PM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 8:39:13 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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~




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 8:40:43 PM >

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 8:55:27 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		"Phone to phone in the better neighborhoods, door to door in the less.". How many mortgage did these people get? I must admit, your tale is confusing

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 8:58:37 PM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

you are contradicting your self now... you said they bought that big shack when they were 71, not that they put money into it all their life .. Signing for a $5-600,000 mortgage at 71 is not prudent by any stretch of the imagination.. People that age usually downsize, not upsize.. People dont understand that when they sign for that amount, they have to pay it at some point? There is something called being willfully blind.. your granny wanted a big fancy house for all her family to come visit her cuz she was lonely.. Why didnt you or some of your family talk her out of that? why didnt you have a lawyer representing her look over all the docs before she bought the house and signed the mortgage docs? She had 8 kids.. you would think at least one would have been very concerned about her doing that at her age..

I cant imagine spending that kind of money on a house at any age.. I guess i just dont think big enough..




Sorry for your inability to read. The house by itself was well above loan value at the time. The same industry that made the loan then proceeded to self-destruct, but by your account of things, retirees forced the banks to self-destruct, so there is no further prosperous pursuit in this matter.


Just to make things happy for you, let's then say that the Enron workers forced their powerful CEO and CFO to erase their retirement funds, shall we?



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 9:08:23 PM >

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 9:19:01 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

"Phone to phone in the better neighborhoods, door to door in the less.". How many mortgage did these people get? I must admit, your tale is confusing



If you are not even aware of the lengths that Standard & Poors and Ameriquest went to in suppression of the democratic process in NJ and GA regarding the latters' attempts at anti-predatory lending laws then I don't know how you feel yourself qualified to discuss the matter.

Your confusion is well  understood here, considering all you've said previously in display of financial illiteracy.









< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 9:26:28 PM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 9:25:26 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		We are so lucky to have you around to explain things to us, edwynn. LOL

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 9:29:01 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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Hey, look, I am not at all happy about this situation.

I am looking all the time to people in the business (finance), who know what they are talking about, that's all.

What I am relating is what is taught in every finance or money and credit class, and the hijacking of democratic process by the rating agencies and predatory loan companies was in the news at the time, however briefly and unobtrusively.


This isn't for sport, folks. This is a hurting matter for many people.
















< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 9:51:08 PM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 10:24:16 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
you are contradicting your self now... you said they bought that big shack when they were 71, not that they put money into it all their life .. Signing for a $5-600,000 mortgage at 71 is not prudent by any stretch of the imagination.. People that age usually downsize, not upsize.. People dont understand that when they sign for that amount, they have to pay it at some point? There is something called being willfully blind.. your granny wanted a big fancy house for all her family to come visit her cuz she was lonely.. Why didnt you or some of your family talk her out of that? why didnt you have a lawyer representing her look over all the docs before she bought the house and signed the mortgage docs? She had 8 kids.. you would think at least one would have been very concerned about her doing that at her age..

I cant imagine spending that kind of money on a house at any age.. I guess i just dont think big enough..

Sorry for your inability to read. The house by itself was well above loan value at the time. The same industry that made the loan then proceeded to self-destruct, but by your account of things, retirees forced the banks to self-destruct, so there is no further prosperous pursuit in this matter.

Just to make things happy for you, let's then say that the Enron workers forced their powerful CEO and CFO to erase their retirement funds, shall we?

lol I never said anything of the sort, dont try to put words into my mouth.. the banks are disgusting, some more than others, there are a few sleezy realtors, etc etc.. You are talking to someone that has sued a realtor and a mortgage broker.. and i won.. I sued a lawyer too,.. won against him too.. If the homeowners have a case against the realtor, bank or whomever, then they should be able to sue and win.. But the homeowner will lose if they went into the transaction with their eyes open, if there was no deception, if they did not do what a reasonable person would do at the age of 71..

And again, where were their 8 kids when they refinanced for a $1/2 million dollars? You keep avoiding answering those questions.. I wonder why..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/25/2012 11:19:06 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

"Phone to phone in the better neighborhoods, door to door in the less.". How many mortgage did these people get? I must admit, your tale is confusing



Look folks, this isn't for sport.

This is a hurting matter for many people.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/25/2012 11:21:01 PM >

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 5:32:25 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
you are contradicting your self now... you said they bought that big shack when they were 71, not that they put money into it all their life .. Signing for a $5-600,000 mortgage at 71 is not prudent by any stretch of the imagination.. People that age usually downsize, not upsize.. People dont understand that when they sign for that amount, they have to pay it at some point? There is something called being willfully blind.. your granny wanted a big fancy house for all her family to come visit her cuz she was lonely.. Why didnt you or some of your family talk her out of that? why didnt you have a lawyer representing her look over all the docs before she bought the house and signed the mortgage docs? She had 8 kids.. you would think at least one would have been very concerned about her doing that at her age..

I cant imagine spending that kind of money on a house at any age.. I guess i just dont think big enough..

Sorry for your inability to read. The house by itself was well above loan value at the time. The same industry that made the loan then proceeded to self-destruct, but by your account of things, retirees forced the banks to self-destruct, so there is no further prosperous pursuit in this matter.

Just to make things happy for you, let's then say that the Enron workers forced their powerful CEO and CFO to erase their retirement funds, shall we?

lol I never said anything of the sort, dont try to put words into my mouth.. the banks are disgusting, some more than others, there are a few sleezy realtors, etc etc.. You are talking to someone that has sued a realtor and a mortgage broker.. and i won.. I sued a lawyer too,.. won against him too.. If the homeowners have a case against the realtor, bank or whomever, then they should be able to sue and win.. But the homeowner will lose if they went into the transaction with their eyes open, if there was no deception, if they did not do what a reasonable person would do at the age of 71..

And again, where were their 8 kids when they refinanced for a $1/2 million dollars? You keep avoiding answering those questions.. I wonder why..




"But the homeowner will lose if they went into the transaction with their eyes open,"


So from what you tell us just now, you won against a realtor and a mortgage broker and a lawyer because you went into deals with them with your eyes closed. Boy, you got the goods on them! And from that you feel yourself to be in position to advise others. Your mind works ~differently~, no question.


"I never said anything of the sort, dont try to put words into my mouth.."

By claiming that retirees (or their kids) were supposed to be able to foretell the irresponsible destruction by banks of their own industry and of the economy years in advance, you are saying exactly that. There is no way I could put any words into your mouth, being as that your foot resides there.

Your idiotic questions have been answered in full several times over, your incapacity to comprehend simple financial basics notwithstanding.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/26/2012 6:11:34 AM >

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 6:15:27 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Why didnt you or some of your family talk her out of that? why didnt you have a lawyer representing her look over all the docs before she bought the house and signed the mortgage docs? She had 8 kids.. you would think at least one would have been very concerned about her doing that at her age.


My mother, who is in her 70s, was receiving a lot of reverse mortgage offers, talked to a lawyer who said it wouldn't be a good idea for her at this time, and now ignores the offers.

My ex spends a lot of time protecting his 80 something yo mother from various offers.

Edwynn - while it is indeed despicable to prey on the elderly, I seem to be missing some facts in your example to draw this conclusion. Perhaps you could set out the timelines again? I don't see how a house that was bought in 1999 could be in such trouble now. Did something shady happen during the boom?

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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 6:19:25 AM   
kalikshama


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The above chart estimates the market value of today's median-priced house over a 40-year period, thus controlling for the fact that housing sizes have changed over time. The thick red line represents real house prices. For those unfamiliar with economic terminology, "real" prices are prices that have been adjusted for inflation. The thick blue line represents nominal house prices. The thin lines represent the pre-bubble (1970-1999) trend lines.

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 6:56:38 AM   
Edwynn


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For those unfamiliar with statistics or economics, and with an agenda, the above graph could seem convincing to their purpose.

The fact that no base year is given would be the red flag for those who are in fact familiar with such digressions.

Changing of the base year by just one year would change every inflation-adjusted line in the graph. Forty different base years are available in the graph displayed.

A trend line is a mathematical display of squares of means, not an indicator of where things should be or in fact are, as well demonstrated by the the discrepancy between the trend line and the actual numbers at various times, as witnessed in the graph given.

Also, if the graph is an aggregate of national prices, it should be understood that there is unlikely to be any individual regional market that tracks in like fashion.








< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/26/2012 7:13:20 AM >

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 7:41:51 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Edwynn, you go right on believing your fanatical beliefs, including that no one but you can possibly understand what is going on. But the nutty solution you proposed and your somewhat fishy and definitely unsympathetic story really show that you are one sided in your thinking and have little credibility. It would be nice to discuss this topic (which is a major crisis) sometime in a rationale and intelligent manner. You seem incapable of doing that.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 8:24:04 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
"But the homeowner will lose if they went into the transaction with their eyes open,"

So from what you tell us just now, you won against a realtor and a mortgage broker and a lawyer because you went into deals with them with your eyes closed. Boy, you got the goods on them! And from that you feel yourself to be in position to advise others. Your mind works ~differently~, no question.

"I never said anything of the sort, dont try to put words into my mouth.."

By claiming that retirees (or their kids) were supposed to be able to foretell the irresponsible destruction by banks of their own industry and of the economy years in advance, you are saying exactly that. There is no way I could put any words into your mouth, being as that your foot resides there.

Your idiotic questions have been answered in full several times over, your incapacity to comprehend simple financial basics notwithstanding.

oh boy.. you know how to twist things around and focus only on what you want to read and see.. I also said if there was no deception.. in my case there was deception by the realtor etc and negligence by the lawyer..

The homeowners were 71,.. they certainly should have been aware that markets go up and markets go down and there is no guarantee that a property will be worth what you think it should be when you decide to sell.. I was certainly aware of that when i was 25 and i am a lot younger than these homeowners to imo they certainly should have known the property could decrease in value just as it could increase in value.. (duh)

You seem to not comprehend that anyone that signs for a mortgage or decides to buy a property is responsible for their decision.. You dont want to see that.. whatever..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 1/26/2012 8:26:08 AM >

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Obama proposes new task force to tackle investigati... - 1/26/2012 9:08:21 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

oh boy.. you know how to twist things around and focus only on what you want to read and see..



Like virtually any of your own posts, this thread and everywhere else, you mean? And so then you complain? Not surprised in the least here. Fact of the matter is that you can't understand your own words, much less anyone else's.


If any of you were serious about this, you could explain why a mortgage that was, at most conservative estimate, $90,000 in the black should be considered "irresponsible," then degrade to being somewhere around $30k to $50k below. Yes, of course house values can decline, and most any responsible person would have considered a $90k margin to be sufficient enough. Through no action of the home owner(s), but rather due to the actions of  the lenders, serious dereliction of financial fiduciary duty occurred that resulted in a financial meltdown, with subsequent significant collateral damage. That was in the news 3-4 years ago, for those who missed it.

"You seem to not comprehend that anyone that signs for a mortgage or decides to buy a property is responsible for their decision.."

Thanks for informing all of your ignorance in contract law. The lender signs the loan too, and is responsible for their decision. Both borrower and lender are responsible for conducting matters that conduce to fulfillment of their obligations. The vast majority of borrowers held up their end to that purpose, the vast majority of lenders did not.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 1/26/2012 9:44:58 AM >

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 40
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