Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored

Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (Full Version)

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SilverBoat -> Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/29/2012 12:57:47 PM)
A piece published yesterday in Salon.com, it's in their Love and Sex section, so perhaps not as major news-media public as it could have been elsewhere. Since it will probably get read by many people outside the usual BDSM community, there's some potential for what impressions 'they' get of 'U/us.' http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/real_abuse_in_bdsm/ I've got some comments, but I'd prefer to hold off until other folks have had some time to read and ponder a bit ... SB

kalikshama -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/29/2012 5:07:07 PM)
This part struck me: quote: The problem spans from unwanted overtures to rape, say Mayhem and Stryker. “When I start to think of the number of times I have been cajoled, pressured, or forced into sex that I did not want when I came into ‘the BDSM community’, I can’t actually count them,” Stryker wrote in Good Vibrations’ magazine. “As I reflected on the number of times I’ve … been pressured into a situation where saying ‘no’ was either not respected or not an option, or said that I did not want a certain kind of toy used on me which was then used, I’m kind of horrified.” I take responsibility for the times when I did something I didn't want to do - it was "easier" to go along than "ruin the scene" or advocate for myself. There were never any times that I was clear and something untoward happened. At the nude beach in South Florida, I often noticed women being unclear when men's attentions were unwanted. (More so for Southern women, less for Yankees.) While I took an anti-rape stance vigorously for dozens of pages in the "Who do you want to Rape on Campus" thread, I do think that women need to be responsible for not getting into and getting themselves out of bad situations. I'm with Janet Hardy (who used to write as Catherine Liszt.) quote: One critic, Janet Hardy, author of several popular BDSM books, including “The New Bottoming Book,” tells me, “My general thoughts are that it is tremendously important to build a safe word culture but that bottoms have to hold up their share of that responsibility,” she says. “A bottom who refuses to safeword when he or she has actually withdrawn consent has just turned me into a rapist or assailant without my consent, and that is not OK.” Hardy, co-author of the bible on polyamory, “The Ethical Slut,” doesn’t deny that sexual assault is a problem in the community, but she takes issue with arguments about the social pressure to not safeword. It has “some of the flavor of the kind of victimhood that we see from some second wave feminists,” she says, “and I don’t want to get too deep into this because I’m going to get myself into trouble, but you know where I’m going with this.”

kalikshama -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/29/2012 5:14:59 PM)
quote: Beyond black-and-white cases of rape, there is a cultural disdain for safe words, they say. “When I was a submissive,” says Stryker, now a dominant in both her personal and professional life, “I felt the pressure to not safeword because I felt like that made you a bad submissive.” That’s because she witnessed submissives who used their safe word being criticized as “difficult.” At the “consent culture” event, Stryker asks the audience, “Is it the fault of the submissive who didn’t safeword when they should have or is it the fault of the dominant who didn’t notice that their submissive didn’t safeword [when they should have] or is it the fault, as I think it is, of the community that makes it complicated?” I take responsibility for when I don't safeword when I should. Only once did someone give me a hard time for safewording. He said "I was watching you; you were fine." Physically, yes, but emotionally, no. He didn't know me well enough to realize I was on the verge of a panic attack. It may be a good idea to force a yellow or a red to get the sub past that mental barrier.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/29/2012 5:22:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama women need to be responsible for not getting into and getting themselves out of bad situations. The above is, to me, the whole point. It is easy for women to say "I didn't want to, but..." However, unless the person threatened you with harm, there really isn't a "but." I'm all for the "no means no" and it doesn't matter if a woman is walking through a dangerous area completely naked, it doesn't mean she is looking for sex, but all too often, women are taking the stance that they were "raped" (which is horrible thing to happen), because it is easier to be a victim than to take responsibility for their own actions. People (men and women both) need to take responsibility for what they get themselves into. Having a "play date" with a complete stranger with no one else around IS an invitation for trouble. I know I will take a lot of heat for saying so, but really, if a woman meets a stranger in a hotel room, allows him to tie her up, and then complains that things they didn't "agree" to happened, she placed herself in a compromising position. Several years ago, I went to someone's house (we had "played" in the past) and he proceeded to continue to try to do something after I told him to stop. While I had played with this man before, I didn't allow him to restrain me, and when he didn't listen, he got a hard enough punch in the face to put things to a stop. The whole "some girls are young and vulnerable" just doesn't cut it.

Clickofheels -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/29/2012 9:14:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SilverBoat A piece published yesterday in Salon.com, it's in their Love and Sex section, so perhaps not as major news-media public as it could have been elsewhere. Since it will probably get read by many people outside the usual BDSM community, there's some potential for what impressions 'they' get of 'U/us.' http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/real_abuse_in_bdsm/ I've got some comments, but I'd prefer to hold off until other folks have had some time to read and ponder a bit ... SB Interesting and thought-provoking read. I'd like to ponder my feelings on it and read what others have to say first. Thanks.

xssve -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/30/2012 1:11:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: Beyond black-and-white cases of rape, there is a cultural disdain for safe words, they say. “When I was a submissive,” says Stryker, now a dominant in both her personal and professional life, “I felt the pressure to not safeword because I felt like that made you a bad submissive.” That’s because she witnessed submissives who used their safe word being criticized as “difficult.” At the “consent culture” event, Stryker asks the audience, “Is it the fault of the submissive who didn’t safeword when they should have or is it the fault of the dominant who didn’t notice that their submissive didn’t safeword [when they should have] or is it the fault, as I think it is, of the community that makes it complicated?” I take responsibility for when I don't safeword when I should. Only once did someone give me a hard time for safewording. He said "I was watching you; you were fine." Physically, yes, but emotionally, no. He didn't know me well enough to realize I was on the verge of a panic attack. It may be a good idea to force a yellow or a red to get the sub past that mental barrier. "A hard dick has no conscience" - but it will get hard again - fuck the scene, it's your ass. Literally, it's your call, so call it - if you don't somebody else will, that's your call too - if you don't want to be picking up pieces or whatever, let 'em stew, they'll fuck each other if they're that horny.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/30/2012 9:54:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I take responsibility for when I don't safeword when I should. Only once did someone give me a hard time for safewording. He said "I was watching you; you were fine." Physically, yes, but emotionally, no. He didn't know me well enough to realize I was on the verge of a panic attack. It may be a good idea to force a yellow or a red to get the sub past that mental barrier. And I'm glad to hear that what he said meant nothing. In all things, does someone else telling you (general you), "you're fine," hold that much weight. We all know ourselves best and if we can't even listen to our own voice, then why should anyone else? When you (again, general you) can't listen to the voice that tells you something and instead succumb to the pressure of someone else, I think it is ridiculous to then say it was their fault. Honestly, it is like our parents saying, "if your friends all jumped off a bridge, would you?" Without actual force, as in threat of physical harm, someone merely using words to get you to agree really doesn't make you a victim of anything but your own stupidity. If the person used words to pressure you into killing someone, would that make you innocent of the crime? Of course not. I don't see this as much different. And yes, I have been in situations where such things could have happened, and damn if those guys didn't try. But they got nowhere with words of "pressure."

peppermint -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/30/2012 10:25:33 AM)
quote: “I felt the pressure to not safeword because I felt like that made you a bad submissive.” The first Dom I ever played with insisted that I use a safeword and pushed me to the point where I did use it. I used it because he told me to use it. Safewords are not bad. Using a safeword is not bad. Some submissives feel that they have failed if they use a safeword. I never have felt that way, maybe because my first Dom was a very reasonable man and showed me the right thinking about safewords. Every Dom I know insists on the submissive having a safeword no matter how many years they have been playing together. The Dom trusts that the submissive will use the word if needed. The submissive trusts that the Dom will stop the scene if the submissive safewords. Trust equals trust. Safewords are symbols of that trust, nothing more, nothing less.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/31/2012 3:00:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peppermint Trust equals trust. Safewords are symbols of that trust, nothing more, nothing less. That just it, the person talking about her safeword being ignored never took the time to establish trust. She was enamored with the "idea" of who the man was rather than developing trust. It's one thing to meet someone in a public place and have them force you elsewhere and then do things without consent. It is something else completely when someone meets someone for the very first time with the intention of engaging in any type of play and then being upset when things go wrong. I don't care how "vulnerable," "naive," or "foolish" a person is, they are still responsible ultimately for what happened to them. If a person hasn't got the sense to take responsibility for themselves and still is engaging in truly stupid behavior (playing with a complete stranger), I don't have the desire to listen to them whine if things have gone terribly wrong. Does that sound like what this "poor girl" experienced after she assumed that because someone was a "prominent educator" in the BDSM community? Yep. She was young and stupid. That doesn't mean she deserved to be raped, or that she "asked for it." Of course, we only know the story she is telling, no one knows what really happened. She says she had, "countless more encounters where her boundaries were blatantly ignored." Sorry, but that does sound like someone who isn't communicating very well with her partners, and certainly doesn't learn from her mistakes.

tj444 -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/31/2012 9:37:14 AM)
I wonder if there are more predators in bdsm than the vanilla world, i expect there is and its easier for them to prey on newbies and the very submissive/naive than the general population and get away with it.. If i were a predator, thats where i would be.. so imo subs/women need to be extra vigilant and cautious...

ProlificNeeds -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (1/31/2012 11:51:17 AM)
quote: “I felt the pressure to not safeword because I felt like that made you a bad submissive.” That's barely the tip on the iceberg. When I first became interested in BDSM, and actually knew enough to understand what D/s was beyond some squiggley feelings in my gut, there always seemed to be a huge pressure from many D types to be... 'spineless' for lack of a better word. It was almost archaic, being too opinionated, too direct, or too firm on what I did NOT want, was heavily frowned upon. Refusing the suggestions or ideas of 'experienced' Dominants often resulted in frosty demeanors. Looking back I am glad for the D's I did date being very practical, not only was it okay to say no, they held little respect for those groups who took such offense to the idea of a sub being very firm in her refusals, and detered me from ever becoming involved in such groups. Today I laugh at those who think I should nod and go along, but back then, I do recall feeling peer pressure. I'm glad I was enough of a bitch that I wanted to spite them more than gain their approval. Good article.

kalikshama -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (2/1/2012 7:56:53 AM)
quote: She says she had, "countless more encounters where her boundaries were blatantly ignored." Sorry, but that does sound like someone who isn't communicating very well with her partners, and certainly doesn't learn from her mistakes. Agreed.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Salon.com Article: When safe words are ignored (2/1/2012 8:05:37 AM)
I will probably wish I had thought more about my response, but I am going to go with my gut. The only thing all her problems have in common is her. I do not know of anyone who has had "several" instances of being "abused", unless they are a very poor judge of character and choose partners badly. This is not a BDSM thing, it is a life thing, and I am sure it happens in the "vanilla" scene also. I just got a sense of victim mentality out of the article. But, then I aint real smart some days. [;)]

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