RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence?

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (Full Version)

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pyroaquatic -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 9:34:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And yet, according to many on these threads, your thoughts are completely valid, and anyone who disagrees with you is a nut case. Care to comment? All thoughts are valid, in fact, I kinda like Scott Adam's idea that ideas are viruses, and we are carriers. It is called Memetics and currently I am under its study. Or memetics is studying me. Anywho... the original proponent of this idea of memetics is Richard Dawkins. Scott Adam's simply placed all of the worlds best ideas and placed them in the context of fiction as to not get lynched.... or mobbed. Just harmless fiction, ya know. Like I had said before... it really does not matter if God exists or not. While 'Christians' spread hate and bigotry that counter the teachings in the bible Atheists are far more concerned with Science... Truth... and the search for how to become more like God (in my opinion). God does not care about a single part as God is Part and Parcel.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/19/2012 11:23:26 PM)
quote: While 'Christians' spread hate and bigotry that counter the teachings in the bible I know many "Christians" who do not spread hate or bigotry. I know many atheists who do. http://community.fox13now.com/_vanhellslinger-has-rated-Atheists-Against-Homosexuality/blog/5685721/96363.html?as=96363 Just an example.

pyroaquatic -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 12:07:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: While 'Christians' spread hate and bigotry that counter the teachings in the bible I know many "Christians" who do not spread hate or bigotry. I know many atheists who do. http://community.fox13now.com/_vanhellslinger-has-rated-Atheists-Against-Homosexuality/blog/5685721/96363.html?as=96363 Just an example. I also know of Christians/Theists that do not spread hate or bigotry. One of my best friends is Mormon. There are also 'Atheists' who hold Science as Absolute and have complete faith in empirical data that is subject to change. How I see it: I can relate to everyone here my viewpoint on things but this is a second hand manufactured experience. To account for a realistic first hand experience between two would mean: A.) Destroying both of us by squeezing our bodies into the same place. B.) Creating offspring. which sounds sexual taken out of context. Appy-poly-logies.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 12:18:35 AM)
lol Nothing wrong with sexual connotations. And, yes, I find myself arguing against the preconceived notions and the bigoted arguments on the boards so much, my own point of view gets lost.

stardancer00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 7:13:19 AM)
It is wonderful to see how people grapple with unknowns. Our understanding of who and what we are in the greater scheme of the universe and what we know already, is hardly all there is. We struggle to understand, and we tend to apply meaning and concept to what we do not understand, and to that which is beyond conceptual understanding. I think we are the blind men who felt each felt a different portion of the elephant, interpreting what they were able to feel under the circumstances. We created "God," a word, concept, anthropomorphism, to explain what is not understood, and what in fact, may be beyond our collective ability to understand. Given our inevitable deaths, religions, philosophies, science, magic and other ways of perceiving, provide human beings with some tools and structures with which to experience life. It is when we restrict our minds, when we disparage others' views, that this becomes the real problem. Our task while we live is in the living, connecting, caring for one another and ourselves. In that respect, the concept of a God, or whether one exists or not, is irrelevant.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 8:43:18 AM)
quote: In that respect, the concept of a God, or whether one exists or not, is irrelevant. You had me until this part. let me ask you. If its all "unknown", which I tend to agree with, then why assume its irrelevant? Thats an extremely dismissive comment to many who disagree with you.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 10:51:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ah so now we speak of baggage instead of prayer. Would you expect prayer to work for me or would you agree with me that there's a minimum set of beliefs which one must have faith in order to to produce the benefit you've been talking about. Baggage as it were that's inseparable from prayer.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 11:03:30 AM)
It seems to me that you have got a lot of baggage yourself, like a chip on your shoulders.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 11:16:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Ah so now we speak of baggage instead of prayer. Would you expect prayer to work for me or would you agree with me that there's a minimum set of beliefs which one must have faith in order to to produce the benefit you've been talking about. Baggage as it were that's inseparable from prayer. I dont have that minimum set of beliefs that you refer too. Yet prayer does work for me. Westboro makes its money off of litigation. What better way to force litigation than to promote somehing extremely controversial. Their weapon of choice is religion, their battle cry is against gays. And you, among others, are pawns in their game of war, being used to strengthen their war chest of treasures. There are far more people who are "chriistians" and who pray and who believe that go to work everyday, do their jobs to the best of their abilities, come home to their families, maybe go to church on sundays, who never utter a word of hatred or bigotry against anyone. Who never try to convert anyone. Who simply live by a set of values, just as you and I do. What you present are the actions of religious leaders and the fringe wackos, or those who use religion as a political and financial weapon. If you were to direct your complaints against those, I would not utter a peep against your beliefs. However, I see you repeatedly attacking people who have no bone in your fight, who have never made a move against your beliefs. You have your targets set on anything or anyone religious. You have your own brand of bigotry.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/20/2012 2:32:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Would you expect prayer to work for me or would you agree with me that there's a minimum set of beliefs which one must have faith in order to to produce the benefit you've been talking about. Baggage as it were that's inseparable from prayer. From a psychological point of view, the only thing you'd have to accept is the possibility that there might be more to you than your ego. While prayer is usually defined in terms of talking to "God," that's very much a culturally conditioned definition. Buddhists pray, and Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. In the most generic terms, prayer is a conversation between the ego and the self. In some systems of thought, our real self is conceived to be infinite, and the term is capitalized ("Self"). Other conceptions of the self subsume the body's consciousness, the sub-conscious, and possibly in some sense a higher-self. But no preconceived definition is required, and the fact that we are more than just our precious little ego should be self-evident. K.

stardancer00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/21/2012 3:59:59 AM)
tazzygirl - The concept of whether or not there is a God is irrelevant because it cannot be known or understood. For those who believe and who live their lives accordingly, caring for themselves and others, connecting and loving, it is those actions which matter, not whether God is in fact there or not. For those who do not believe, the task is still the same, to connect, care, love and experience life fully. It is when any of us becomes stuck in philosophy or religion or any other conceptual process and uses it to distance ourselves from life, from ourselves and others, that there is a problem.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/21/2012 4:11:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Buddhists pray, and Buddhism is a non-theistic religion. In the most generic terms, prayer is a conversation between the ego and the self. I've got to dispute some details here, that's sort of like saying Christians love everyone and Christians hate homosexuals. Both statements are true but not of the same Christians. Buddhism just like Christianity isn't all the same. There are Buddhists who pray and there are Buddhists who are non-theistic. However, they are not the same Buddhists. The monastery I stayed at in Kyoto didn't involve praying but there are plenty of Buddhists who just pray to the Celestial Buddhas. The Celestial Buddhas are very obviously gods.

Rule -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/21/2012 5:00:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel that's sort of like saying Christians love everyone and Christians hate homosexuals. Christians do not hate homosexuals. Hating homosexuals is Jewish Old Testament. Hating homosexuals is characteristic for populations that circumcise their male offspring - per my definition Jews. I rather also suspect that the highest frequency of homosexual inclination is in such populations. Christianity did away with all things OT when they introduced the New Testament. Homosexuals are the strength of non-circumcising populations. If there is any hatred of homosexuals in the New Testament - I do not know that there is - it is because these texts were written by people who were still very close to their Jewish heritage. If so, being non-Christian, they ought to be removed from the New Testament.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 1:09:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds Hmm, examples of shoving it in my face. "The war on Christmas." Threatening to boycott businesses who allow their employees to say Merry Christmas. quote: Prayer in Schools, (the people who are trying to get it back, I know it isn't currently the case) Prayer in school is allowed. Organized prayer is not. quote: Cutesy little e-mails that are about god and that "no one could possibly be offended by." I get the same emails about there being no god and how its scientifically impossible for god to exist. quote: Folks who try to draw me into a "deep and meaningful soul searching conversation," when I say something flippant on a religion thread. Then I have to question just who you are hanging around with. quote: Basically anyone who tries to get me to believe as they do, no matter how they try to act like they are "just trying to understand my opinion." Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and trying to put your fingers in someone else's is generally going to annoy that person. You believe, I don't, and I don't have a problem with you believing if you are willing to just leave me alone on it. I dont believe. Yet, sitting on a bus, lets say, and someone sneezes, My first impulse is to say "bless you" because its how I was raised... told from early childhood that was the polite thing to do. Yet, I have been yelled at for saying it because someone didnt believe in god. Ummm.. I dont say god bless you... they assumed. Its a two way street.

tazzygirl -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 1:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stardancer00 tazzygirl - The concept of whether or not there is a God is irrelevant because it cannot be known or understood. For those who believe and who live their lives accordingly, caring for themselves and others, connecting and loving, it is those actions which matter, not whether God is in fact there or not. For those who do not believe, the task is still the same, to connect, care, love and experience life fully. It is when any of us becomes stuck in philosophy or religion or any other conceptual process and uses it to distance ourselves from life, from ourselves and others, that there is a problem. It is natural for us to find those we have the most in common with. It is also natural for us to close our "ears" to the voices of dissent. What has to happen is to end the dissent and open the minds. I do not have to agree with you to understand your point of view. What happens is one side attacks, the other side defends and it becomes a vicious circle. Breaking the circle is the only way to end the attacks. Someone has to stop first.

stardancer00 -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 3:35:36 AM)
tazzygirl - Thank you for your comments. We agree completely about closed minds, and I find that it is a trap any of us can fall into. These forums provide a place where we can share our views rather than attacking one another. GotSteel - Regarding the Celestial Gods and Buddhism: Buddhism is non-theistic, but Buddhists also believe in the unseen world of beings. Prayer to the gods comes in two forms - some of what looks like gods are aspects of our own inner selves represented in outer form, but there are also energies considered to be actual beings who inhabit other realms and who can be supplicated for various reasons. However, the idea of an all-powerful Creator God does not exist in Buddhism. The Heart Sutra explains reality as being basically neither "this or that," beyond both. The Buddha himself explains it this way: "The person who believed in God, he was trying to find confirmation for his belief from me. I was not going to say yes to him -- I am not going to confirm anybody's belief. I had to say no, I had to deny, just to destroy his belief, because all beliefs are barriers to knowing the truth. Theist or atheist, all beliefs, Hindu or Christian or Mohammedan, all beliefs are barriers."

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 5:35:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel There are Buddhists who pray and there are Buddhists who are non-theistic... there are plenty of Buddhists who just pray to the Celestial Buddhas. The Celestial Buddhas are very obviously gods. Do you just make this stuff up? I was going to let you enjoy yourself for a while longer. But as stardancer has stepped in to point out the obvious, we might as well get on with it. Buddhism is non-theistic. Period. None of the buddhas, celestial or otherwise, are "very obviously gods," or gods at all. Period. Do you even know the difference? On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at the monastery of Anathapindika. Then he addressed the monks saying, "O monks." — "Venerable Sir," said the monks by way of reply to the Blessed One. Thereupon he spoke as follows: Monks, I shall relate a former incident. There arose a battle between the Devas (gods) and Asuras. Then Sakka, the Lord of the devas, addressed the devas of the Tavatimsa heaven thus: Happy ones, if the devas who have gone to the battle should experience fear or terror or suffer from hair standing on end, let them behold the crest of my own banner. If you do so, any fear, terror or hair standing on end arising in you will pass away. If you fail to look up to the crest of my banner, look at the crest of the banner of Pajapati, King of gods. If you do so, any fear, terror or hair standing on end arising in you will pass away. If you fail to look up to the crest of Pajapati, King of the gods, look at the crest of the banner of Varuna, King of the gods. If you do so, any fear, terror or hair standing on end arising in you will pass away. Monks, any fear, terror or hair standing on end arising in them who look at the crest of the banner of Sakka... The Lord of the gods, of Pajapati... of Varuna... of Isana, the King of the gods, any fear terror or hair standing on end, may pass away, or may not pass away. What is the reason for this? Sakka, the Lord of gods, O monks, is not free from lust, not free from hate, not free from delusion, and is therefore liable to fear, terror, fright, and flight... ~Dhajagga Paritta And there you have it: the gods are not enlightened beings. They suffer from the same weaknesses that all ignorance is heir to. In fact, from this point of view the deity of the OT is just another deva, albeit a particularly possessive and unpleasant one. Persisting in your claim that whenever there is prayer there must be a "god" lurking somewhere, or else it isn't prayer, is simply pushing a narrow-minded definition in disregard of the facts of actual practice. K.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 5:45:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata From a psychological point of view, the only thing you'd have to accept is the possibility that there might be more to you than your ego...In some systems of thought, our real self is conceived to be infinite, and the term is capitalized ("Self"). Other conceptions of the self subsume the body's consciousness, the sub-conscious, and possibly in some sense a higher-self. But no preconceived definition is required, and the fact that we are more than just our precious little ego should be self-evident. If you're talking about the ego to denote the idea that there's more going on in our brains than we have conscious access to, while I agree with the idea that we don't have conscious access to all of the processes going on in our brains I don't think acceptance of said concept is necessary for prayer. I also don't think acceptance of "Self" is necessary for prayer. Seems like it should be possible for one to believe in some sort of deity and pray to said being without believing that they themselves have any sort of infinite existence or supernatural properties.

Kirata -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 6:06:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel If you're talking about the ego to denote the idea that there's more going on in our brains than we have conscious access to, while I agree with the idea that we don't have conscious access to all of the processes going on in our brains I don't think acceptance of said concept is necessary for prayer. I also don't think acceptance of "Self" is necessary for prayer. Seems like it should be possible for one to believe in some sort of deity and pray to said being without believing that they themselves have any sort of infinite existence or supernatural properties. I only used "self" (lowercase) to avoid making any pronouncements about what that "more than the ego" might be considered to consist of. But yes, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to believe in and pray to a deity of some sort without the component of believing oneself to have any existence beyond the present one. K.

GotSteel -> RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? (2/22/2012 7:10:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Persisting in your claim that whenever there is prayer there must be a "god" lurking somewhere, or else it isn't prayer, is simply pushing a narrow-minded definition in disregard of the facts of actual practice. Where did I make that claim? I haven't even gotten to explaining what I think is required to be in that minimal set yet. So far I've put forth the claim that there is a minimal set. Expressed that from my point of view less is more and tried to clear up some of your misconceptions. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata And there you have it: the gods are not enlightened beings. So you've defined the Devas as gods thereby excluding the vastly more powerful enlightened beings who are living in heaven and being prayed to in the hope that they will intervene using their supernatural powers, nice magic trick [8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shinto.shtml In Japan today, both Shintō and Buddhist practice among the common folk has taken on an air of "this-worldly benefits" (concrete rewards now; Jp. = 現世利益, Genze Riyaku). To many Japanese, Shintō and Buddhist faith is primarily involved with petitions and prayers for business profits, the safety of the household, success on school entrance exams, painless child birth, and other concrete rewards now, in this life. Certainly there is a concept common in Buddhism that the Buddha in heaven are not accessible. Thing is Buddhists who believe that don't pray they engage in different meditation and contemplation exercises.

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