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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/10/2012 7:47:35 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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Don't just assume the nastier, the better. Because you don't want to harm the other person and hit them on a sore spot.

The way to figure out what is okay and what isn't is to talk about it out of bed. Over coffee for instance. Ask him if he thinks being told he's the worst cocksucker in the world would make him hot or not. See his reactions and judge from that.

But if this is too rough for you, then you have the right to not do it. I would also explain to him that you can't call him names for being bi, because it makes you feel as if someone thinks of you in these terms, and you (unlike him) don't enjoy being humiliated, shamed or vilified for your sexuality.


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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/11/2012 9:33:22 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
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FR
Verbal humiliation like all humiliation seems to be
something people are into or not. But it could
be a aquired taste to someone with a open mind.
A list of what's sounds good and what sounds
bad wouldn't do much for me because I enjoy
the surprise that comes from whatever twisted
shit he comes up with. But I imagine most people
prefer going into it with perimeters.
Is this something your boyfriend has done
or just something he thinks he might like?
Is he only interested in being humiliated about
the bi thing or does he want to delve into
other things to be humiliated about?
I think the thing you need to remember
most is he knows who you are and he knows
what your beliefs are. You aren't some asshole
on the street or in a bar calling him a cocksucker.
you're someone he loves and feels safe with.
If he's truly into it some part of him craves it
and finds pleasure in it. He may also find it
cathartic, guilt releasing and reassuring.
Reassuring because when it comes full circle
you will probably say something like "You're
a dirty cocksucking whore. And I like it.
You're a dirty cocksucking whore and you're
mine. You're a dirty cocksucking whore
and I wouldn't have it any other way."
It's not something you want to jump into
the deep end right off. Build up to the heavier
stuff if you even decide to go there.
You can start off teasing. May I suggest telling
him he has cock breath? All verbal humiliation
isn't about name calling nor is it always
snarling. It can be very potent when done in
a calm excruciatingly polite manner.
If you find saying some words difficult all
you have to do is say "Tell what you are."
I didn't hear that, say it again. Look me
in the eye when you say that. Say it til I tell
you to stop saying it."
It doesn't reflect your values. It's all in context.
Talk about it with one another. Before you
ever try it and afterwards if you do.
Go into it with both of you knowing you
could hit a nerve accidentally. But if there's
trust and communication he should know
it wasn't intentional.
So ease into it if you decide to give it a try.
If it's a massive turn off for you don't
do it.

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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/11/2012 9:39:59 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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That's an interesting twist, Winterapple - maybe, if humiliating him for being bi bothers her, maybe she can turn it around like you do, and she can order him to say those things himself. Being compelled in such a way can be pretty intense, too - maybe her partner could still get the experience he wants, without her having to actually vocalize things that bother her.

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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/12/2012 4:10:43 PM   
sub4room


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It's good if what is being said is sincere. Just making stuff up that sounds right has nothing real to it and so there is nothing to feel from hearing it, in my experience. I think it is probably hard to berate someone when you know they like it, since the point of talking that way is to inflict pain, but if they like it you might as well be paying them a compliment. It is a paradox.

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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 8:59:07 AM   
xssve


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A lot of it has to do with mindfullness, I think, focusing on what you're doing, if part of you mind is focused on consequences and what people, especially your partner might be thinking about you, that can be distracting: if they hear the thing they're most apprehensive about, it pushes them over the edge, there's no point holding back now, they can immerse themselves in the role, the act - for me personally, there's nothing worse than a chick who doesn't talk, you have no idea what's going through their heads, I'd almost rather hear abuse than think everything is great and find out later there is big gulf in our perceptions of what is going on.

And I also mention that because that's another dynamic, where the bottom abuses you back, kind of a reverse objectification thing: "hurt me/fuck me harder you bastard"! You don't hear a lot abotu it in here, but it crops up occasionally, and it can get more into non-consent/reluctance, forced sex, etc., but it can often just reflect the passion of the moment.

We all, or many of us anyway, have mixed feelings about our sexuality and how we express it, we have things drilled into us both formally and informally from the time we can talk - at some point we're told not to walk around the house naked - that's just the beginning, and it doesn't end when you become and adult and you're long past the point of needing to give a shit what other people think, but the hooks can go pretty deep.

In BDSM we're going even beyond the average experience, there are people who are humiliated to be seen naked in public, like in the changing room at a public swimming pool or the gym, much less exposing their deepest desires and needs of a sexual nature, things that would get them stared at or openly ridiculed in a more stereotypical social setting, and hearing those fears verbalized is often cathartic in that once it's verbalized it can be dealt with on a conscious level instead of being internalized subconsciously "you think I'm a slut", <pout> - "no, I know you're a slut now get your slut ass over here and act like the slut you are".

i.e., in a sense, you're giving them permission to act like a slut, it past the point of judgement, in for a penny in for a pound. i.e., once the fear is verbalized, it's no longer nagging at the back of your mind, it's out in the open where you can deal with it head on instead of chasing shadows which can be enervating.

I think the harder part is figuring out how far it should go. For some people it's a constant need, they need regular verbal humiliation to stay in that headspace, other need to shift gears, kick out of it, change faces - there is no rule here, it's a highly individualistic thing, even moreso than the sex act itself, which after all, there are only so many ways to do.

The only relevant research I can offer is that self objectification does appear to suppress cognitive function in women at least, and in general I think, there is a fairly large distinction between craving verbal abuse from someone else as catalyst for entering a particular headspace, and external reinforcement of an internalized self loathing - which is at least anecdotally, common among gay/bi men, not surprising given the amount of public censure associated with homosexuality.

Again, don't really have a rule for that, but it is something to be aware of, and verbal abuse can be a method of setting them up for a switch to approval, which may be what they really need - it can be a very subtle interaction, it is a form of communication, they are telling you something, and you have to pay close attention to their responses to figure out what that is, and for you in particular, you may want to set aside some time now and then to just talk about it with him in a neutral way.


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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 9:26:27 AM   
CaringandReal


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You are very nice to consider your boy's interests in this way, but if it were me (I'm not dominant, just speculating for the sake of this conversation) I'd only verbally humiliate someone if it turned me on to do so. If it didn't or if I was neutral toward it, I wouldn't do it just to please the person who is supposed to be submitting to me and pleasing me. While some submissive people seem not to mind if what the dominant does is not genuinely felt by them, I feel that doing this (servicing the submissive) takes some of the realism out of the relationship, which is one in which you are on top and your desires are getting served. If your servant also happens to like what you do, well and good, but that doesn't have to be so in these sorts of relationships.

In my observation, female submissives tend to be more sensitive to this sort of thing (a dominant doing something just to please us) and find it disturbing. It's possible we differ from male submissives in this regard. But anyway, if I were you and I had no natural interest in VA and it didn't do anything for me, I just wouldn't do it because it would feel fake, like I was serving him, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents. :-)

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(in reply to VivianDarkbl00m)
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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 9:45:59 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

You are very nice to consider your boy's interests in this way, but if it were me (I'm not dominant, just speculating for the sake of this conversation) I'd only verbally humiliate someone if it turned me on to do so. If it didn't or if I was neutral toward it, I wouldn't do it just to please the person who is supposed to be submitting to me and pleasing me. While some submissive people seem not to mind if what the dominant does is not genuinely felt by them, I feel that doing this (servicing the submissive) takes some of the realism out of the relationship, which is one in which you are on top and your desires are getting served. If your servant also happens to like what you do, well and good, but that doesn't have to be so in these sorts of relationships.

In my observation, female submissives tend to be more sensitive to this sort of thing (a dominant doing something just to please us) and find it disturbing. It's possible we differ from male submissives in this regard. But anyway, if I were you and I had no natural interest in VA and it didn't do anything for me, I just wouldn't do it because it would feel fake, like I was serving him, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents. :-)



In the very strictest sense of the D/s dynamic, you'd probably be correct but, there's a certain "head fake" to relationships.

I despise coffee and only use it, when I need a laxative (it has that effect on me). I have met several submissive ladies that love their coffee (especially in the morning). If I enjoy their company and their service to me, it behoves me to make them happy, also. So, being an early riser, I have made my fair share of morning coffee.

I think the issue is one of "sacrifice". Do I hate having coffee in my house? Not at all. It doesn't affect me, in the least. Do I hate owning a coffee maker or using the electricty? Nope.

Would I drink coffee to make a lady happy? Hell-fuckin'-nah! That's the difference to me.

I have often used the example of one of my ladies asking: "Daddy, can I paint the bedroom pink and put flower print curtains on the windows?". Since the color of the room in which I sleep doesn't matter much to me, I couldn't possibly care less. If one of my ladies were to say: "Daddy, can I paint your guitar pink?" There would probably be some kind of punishment involved.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


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(in reply to CaringandReal)
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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 9:46:56 AM   
xssve


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All of which leads to Two very differnt possible dynamics: it could be tied to sexual response itself, i.e., the verbal humiliation is a sort of background noise that facilitates and erotic headspace, loss of control, being as on object of pleasure, giving, receiving, or both, or it can be a way of dealing with some issues- which might be generalized, as described above, the cumulative effects of a lifetime of hiding your true needs and desires, or it could be highly specific, a single person who's approval you value, a parent, possibly - it could even stem from a singe incident, and that could apply to either dynamic.

A lot of fetish's start that way, I don't even know where my stockings fetish came from, I can only guess it's from thumbing through the lingerie section of the Sears Roebuck catalog and my first glimpse of an encased leg, with that expanse of smooth, pliable thigh emerging from the top, the mass of the hips, the curve of the belly leading to that mysterious negative space between the thighs - it's erotic vs. overtly sexual, it just makes me feel all... twitchy.

So, uh, anyway... it does behoove you to try and figure out where it's coming from, it might not be the big deal you think it is, in fact it might be best to treat it lightly till you have a better idea what's going on in this guys head, for your sake as much as his, and you might just derive some satisfaction in the end, from being able to push those buttons just so.


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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 9:56:24 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

You are very nice to consider your boy's interests in this way, but if it were me (I'm not dominant, just speculating for the sake of this conversation) I'd only verbally humiliate someone if it turned me on to do so. If it didn't or if I was neutral toward it, I wouldn't do it just to please the person who is supposed to be submitting to me and pleasing me. While some submissive people seem not to mind if what the dominant does is not genuinely felt by them, I feel that doing this (servicing the submissive) takes some of the realism out of the relationship, which is one in which you are on top and your desires are getting served. If your servant also happens to like what you do, well and good, but that doesn't have to be so in these sorts of relationships.

In my observation, female submissives tend to be more sensitive to this sort of thing (a dominant doing something just to please us) and find it disturbing. It's possible we differ from male submissives in this regard. But anyway, if I were you and I had no natural interest in VA and it didn't do anything for me, I just wouldn't do it because it would feel fake, like I was serving him, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents. :-)
That too, and that would be a standard answer to a male dominant asking the same question: who cares?

But best to be thorough, it may be that there are differences between men and women in this regard, and since there is a bi thing going in here, it may be his feminine side that needs this - not to say women are suckers for punishment or anything, and in general a need to be treated "badly" could signify anything from a need to test and/or prove ones own strength to a martyr complex, and everything in between, but from my point of view, reading my partner is part of the satisfaction for me, and goes beyond simple physical satisfaction or or just blowing off energy, it's a big part of what keeps the whole thing interesting to me.


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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/13/2012 6:32:06 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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Oh, and I don't know if you noticed, but there is a humiliation fetish thread in the Ask a Sub forum, for a better POV from the other side of the kneel.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_4011527/tm.htm


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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/14/2012 1:06:45 PM   
VivianDarkbl00m


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/8/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve


In BDSM we're going even beyond the average experience, there are people who are humiliated to be seen naked in public, like in the changing room at a public swimming pool or the gym, much less exposing their deepest desires and needs of a sexual nature, things that would get them stared at or openly ridiculed in a more stereotypical social setting, and hearing those fears verbalized is often cathartic in that once it's verbalized it can be dealt with on a conscious level instead of being internalized subconsciously "you think I'm a slut", <pout> - "no, I know you're a slut now get your slut ass over here and act like the slut you are".

i.e., in a sense, you're giving them permission to act like a slut, it past the point of judgement, in for a penny in for a pound. i.e., once the fear is verbalized, it's no longer nagging at the back of your mind, it's out in the open where you can deal with it head on instead of chasing shadows which can be enervating.





I think I'm starting to understand, for the first time, the need some people have for verbal humiliation. Before, it was just one of those things, that I just sort of accepted without understanding it... So thank you for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The only relevant research I can offer is that self objectification does appear to suppress cognitive function in women at least, and in general I think, there is a fairly large distinction between craving verbal abuse from someone else as catalyst for entering a particular headspace, and external reinforcement of an internalized self loathing - which is at least anecdotally, common among gay/bi men, not surprising given the amount of public censure associated with homosexuality.


This is really interesting to me. A little worrying too, I guess. We talk about his attraction to men often, it's not something that I'm uncomfortable with at all, however, I think he might be tortured by it still, despite my reassuring him I find it sexually arousing. And at the same time this, what I suspect is a degree of self loathing, gives him intense sexual pleasure. So I'm confused if I should even analyze it as much as I do, and attempt to take the shame away because then I might be taking the sort of dark, taboo, intense sexual pleasure... He seems extremely uncomfortable hooking up with men when I'm not there and when he's not "doing it to please me". I've tried to talk to him about it and he said that the reason for it seeming so is because he wants to share it with me- sharing it with me is where his sexual gratification comes from. I'm trying to understand it. I guess all there is to do is make sure he knows I support him and try to indulge the kink...


(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Verbal Humiliation Q - 2/14/2012 1:15:01 PM   
VivianDarkbl00m


Posts: 6
Joined: 3/8/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

You are very nice to consider your boy's interests in this way, but if it were me (I'm not dominant, just speculating for the sake of this conversation) I'd only verbally humiliate someone if it turned me on to do so. If it didn't or if I was neutral toward it, I wouldn't do it just to please the person who is supposed to be submitting to me and pleasing me. While some submissive people seem not to mind if what the dominant does is not genuinely felt by them, I feel that doing this (servicing the submissive) takes some of the realism out of the relationship, which is one in which you are on top and your desires are getting served. If your servant also happens to like what you do, well and good, but that doesn't have to be so in these sorts of relationships.

In my observation, female submissives tend to be more sensitive to this sort of thing (a dominant doing something just to please us) and find it disturbing. It's possible we differ from male submissives in this regard. But anyway, if I were you and I had no natural interest in VA and it didn't do anything for me, I just wouldn't do it because it would feel fake, like I was serving him, not the other way around. Just my 2 cents. :-)


We are switches, although I top about 80% of the time. I know "topping from the bottom" is frowned upon. He does it all the time lol. It works for us. I find it helpful because if I had to name a single thing as my ultimate kink, it would be watching another person orgasm. I think I could orgasm just by watching someone else's physical response to a climax. It's weird, but because of that I love getting hints and guidance. The rest is just icing on the cake.

(in reply to CaringandReal)
Profile   Post #: 32
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