RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?'

RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (Full Version)

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kalikshama -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 11:16:30 AM)
quote: 2) They're in school and, therefore aren't fully really in the military. It's no different than a kid that enters enlisted ranks through a recruiting office and hasn't yet finished basic training/boot camp. They're not soldiers or marines (quite yet). They are there to learn how to be (junior) officers in our armed forces. They're not finished learning, yet. They are still subject to the UCMJ as well as civilian law.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 11:51:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: You're talking about college stuidents who wear a uniform. Again; not an excuse for the behavior; just a distinction between honest-to-goodness soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines and the crucibles which turn them out. The flaw in your thinking is that everybody at a military academy is a student. The assaulters could have been instructors, who aren't trainees. quote: The "64%" number wasn't a "survey" of the military. It was a "survey" of the military academies. While I did refer to a VA survey earlier in this thread, this report of a 64% increase in sexual assault reports at military academies is not a survey but a report on all the sex assaults reported, which the DOD estimates to be 10% of actual assaults. USMAWP has 4,400 students (pretty much), every year. The faculty to student ratio is 1:8. 64% of 4,400 is 2816 one eighth of 4,400 is 550 So, if we take your numbers to mean it's the current or former members of the military; the ones one would hope would engender our trust and respect, each of them are raping 5 students per year. Okay. You didn't say *all* the instructors were involved. Let's say 25% of the faculty are rapists. That's 112 of them (sorry no partial people will be counted). Now, they're each raping 25 (and some remainder) students each. I feel pretty confident in "assuming" that most of the sexual activities be it rape or consensual (instructors having sex with students would almost always be considered statutory rape) are amongst the students. Am I saying it's impossible for some of the faculty to be engaging in horrid behavior? Nope. I am saying it is very likely that that is the exception rather than the rule. As I broke down the numbers for you, even if a full ¼ of the faculty were rapists, I doubt they could remain anonymous for very long. That's one person, carrying out a rape (for which they don't get caught) every two weeks. In a relatively small community where a lot of people know each other (and students certainly know a good portion of the faculty). No, while I wasn't assuming it, before; I think the assumption that most of the rapes are perpetrated by students on students is a safe one. Peace and comfort, Michael

DaddySatyr -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 11:55:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: 2) They're in school and, therefore aren't fully really in the military. It's no different than a kid that enters enlisted ranks through a recruiting office and hasn't yet finished basic training/boot camp. They're not soldiers or marines (quite yet). They are there to learn how to be (junior) officers in our armed forces. They're not finished learning, yet. They are still subject to the UCMJ as well as civilian law. I think you're missing my point. I just wish we weren't referring to students who may be subject to UCMJ and the law as "military personal" because until they graduate, they aren't. Peace and comfort, Michael

xssve -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 12:21:26 PM)
It does sound a bit more like an indictment of higher education than the military per se - Tailhook for example sounds a lot like a frat party, Officers are of course, college graduates and a high percentage of them were in fraternities. Like I said, I witnessed a lot of hazing in the military, but I never once even heard about a rape, male or female, as hazing thing, and I worked with a lot of women in various capacities. Overall, military hazing is, for the most part, not even remotely similar to what you hear about happening in fraternities, and I suspect the last thing anybody wants to do is piss off somebody who is expected to have their back in a firefight - i.e., it isn't a competition for a management position or a bigger office, it's life or death, and advancement in the military is relatively isolated from the social jockeying that goes on in the civilian world, popularity don't mean squat, it's all about results. The rapes I heard of were very similar to civilian rape incidents, e.g., at one base I was stationed at, a guy was raping joggers in isolated areas, and when I moved back here after I got out, there was a guy here doing the exact same thing. The weirdest thing about that is both guys were raping victims of both sexes.

TheBigDog -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:02:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this. Got a shred of evidence to back this up or is it more bullshit? I suggest you watch the personal ad homenam style attacks against users and try to move the conversation forward.

tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:04:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 FR : Couple things..... 1st we`re not talking about sex.Sex is consensual. We shouldn`t be conflating rape and sex. 2nd,a man(or woman) who forces himself on someone, against their will is a rapist. That doesn`t just happen willie-nillie out of nowhere. This conduct just doesn`t come and go, whenever..... What makes a man(or woman) a rapist was there before the attack and doesn`t go away after the attack, either. And people who wouldn`t otherwise be involved with it aren`t all of a sudden going to become rapists as soon as they are around women. The people committing these crimes would be victimizing whoever was around them, whether they were in the military or not. Saying "these things just happen" if we allow woman to serve, is a cowardly,cheap cop-out. Good post Owner59. Leaving aside the vacuous and ignorant attempts to blame "feminists" and "feminazis" for rape, not too many people have been concerned with why these rapes are occurring. Could the origins partly lie in the mentality that designates some women as "dorm sluts/dorm hos/field mattresses" for the crime of enjoying sex? While no gender or sexuality has a monopoly on rape, dehumanising women and reducing women to little more than cum buckets through vile designations such as the above is one step down a road that no sane person should ever travel.

TheBigDog -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:10:41 PM)
quote: Could the origins partly lie in the mentality that designates some women as "dorm sluts/dorm hos/field mattresses" for the crime of enjoying sex? While no gender or sexuality has a monopoly on rape, dehumanising women and reducing women to little more than cum buckets through vile designations such as the above is one step down a road that no sane person should ever travel. Oh look a strawman argument right outta the feminazi handbook. These women are being judged on there behavior same as a man would. Isn't that what equality means or does equality only mean special favors and special treatment?

tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:14:24 PM)
quote: TheBigDog I suggest you watch the personal ad homenam style attacks against users and try to move the conversation forward. _____________________________ A commie, a black and a Muslim walk into the bar. The bartender says "Hello mr president". Can I suggest you take your own advice.

TheBigDog -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:15:28 PM)
I haven't done nothing but advance the issues. Why don't you contribute to the conversation or stop trying to derail this thread? quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: TheBigDog I suggest you watch the personal ad homenam style attacks against users and try to move the conversation forward. _____________________________ A commie, a black and a Muslim walk into the bar. The bartender says "Hello mr president". Can I suggest you take your own advice.

Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:16:45 PM)
Its a sock Tweak, let its impotent baiting be just that.

Owner59 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:26:38 PM)
"I haven't done nothing but advance the issues" "feminazi" Is today backwards day?

SoftBonds -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:33:01 PM)
One point I'd like to point out, not so much regarding the military as rapes in general, is that less than 6% of people are violent criminals, obviously most of those are not rapists (muggers mostly, some murderers). So a small portion of our population are responsible for all the rapes. Then you see statistics that say at least 1 in 3 women and 1 in 6 men have been raped. Meaning every rapist has done the crime at least 10 times, and probably far more. What am I saying? I don't know, I guess on the one hand, I'm saying you can't blame all men for this (as the anchor does when she says "what did you expect.") and on the other hand that if we catch more rapists and put them away, each one saves a lot of women a lot of stress. And on a purely selfish note, women who have not been raped are more interested in sex, so if we can crack down on rapists the rest of us guys get more and better sex! ;)

tweakabelle -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:38:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Its a sock Tweak, let its impotent baiting be just that. Thanks for the advice Lucy. It helped me decide that, if I was going to waste my time, there are better ways of doing it than engaging further with such a paragon of sagacity. The repeated attempts to implicate feminism as a cause of rape are almost amusing. The figures tell us that almost equal numbers of men and women are suffering from post-rape trauma in the US military. This means that either: the military is far gayer than any of us had previously imagined; or the feminist analysis of rape as primarily a crime of violence and power rather than a sex crime is correct.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:43:38 PM)
I would be interested in seeing the actual questions/standards used to arrive at the 64% number. I wonder if they're factoring in un-reported rapes which is kind of difficult because the fact they're un-reported means that they can't really be counted. It's like saying: "There were one million cases of a drug dealer ripping off a buyer that went unreported, last year." How the hell could anyone know? I just think 64% of any population is an awfully high number. It is nearly two-thirds. It would almost suggest that the other one-third are the rapists. Just on numbers alone, it's a hard pill to swallow. I just can't fathom a society that is two-thirds victims and one-third predators. Are there no "regular people" left? Peace and comfort, Michael ETA: Okay. I clicked on the link to get me to the original pentagon report. They're saying that there were 3,200 reported cases but, that they estimate 19,000 actual cases because of under-reporting. How can anyone quantify that? John Doe (a fictional user on these forums whom I've never met) says he weighs 190 lbs. but, I'm going to fill in that he weighs 885 lbs. (the original number multiplied by the 5.9 factor the pentagon used) because everyone lies about their weight. It's ridiculous to the Nth degree. MPC

Lucylastic -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:50:07 PM)
The fact that its been going on outside the US, outside the american forces for longer than anyone can count, , the fact that women have been called, 100 different types of names for daring to enjoy sex on all sides of every ocean and in every armed forces arena seems to be irrelevant, it HAS to be womens rights that are at fault and black muslim president is at fault for allowing women to put themselves in a dangerous place. Blame the wrong people is just obfuscation, very poor obfuscation Im just waiting for the "suggestion" that all the male rapes are reportedly caused by women.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 1:55:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this. Got a shred of evidence to back this up or is it more bullshit? I suggest you watch the personal ad homenam style attacks against users and try to move the conversation forward. It's not a personal attack. It's a question. Why are you avoiding a direct question? Is it because your claim is bullshit? You popped into a place full of Doms and Sadists. Do you expect people to act like they're at fucking High Tea? Nice try at a derail. I suggest you back up your claims if you wish them to not be thought of as bullshit.

tazzygirl -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 3:38:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this. Got a shred of evidence to back this up or is it more bullshit? I suggest you watch the personal ad homenam style attacks against users and try to move the conversation forward. Do you need some spidey-roos?

Politesub53 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 4:13:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 It`s usually is ALWAYS............. that men................ are the rapists. If your assertion is that women never rape men, you are sadly misinformed. Yet you fail to address Owners actual point. That the majority of rapes are carried out by men on women. You just seem interested in more of your feminist bashing bullshit.

Politesub53 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 4:17:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBigDog This is just more lies being told by misandrists who also naturally hate our soldiers. Their trying to make soldiers out to be rapists but that woman on Fox is right. You put men in situations like that and then you put these women who are really pawns of feminists and you say to them "You'll be a pioneer and a hero if you just go out and do this." Well what do they expect to happen? What benefit was their ever to putting women in the military in the first place? None. It's no surprise that this is all happening under the watch of the black Muslim who wants to destroy the military anyway. It's time someone did something about this. Just what we need, more macho bullshit based on predjudice and ignorance.

Owner59 -> RE: Liz Trotta On Women Raped In Military: 'What Did They Expect?' (2/15/2012 4:23:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoftBonds One point I'd like to point out, not so much regarding the military as rapes in general, is that less than 6% of people are violent criminals, obviously most of those are not rapists (muggers mostly, some murderers). So a small portion of our population are responsible for all the rapes. Then you see statistics that say at least 1 in 3 women and 1 in 6 men have been raped. Meaning every rapist has done the crime at least 10 times, and probably far more. What am I saying? I don't know, I guess on the one hand, I'm saying you can't blame all men for this (as the anchor does when she says "what did you expect.") and on the other hand that if we catch more rapists and put them away, each one saves a lot of women a lot of stress. And on a purely selfish note, women who have not been raped are more interested in sex, so if we can crack down on rapists the rest of us guys get more and better sex! ;) You seem like a thoughtful guy but you`re reading the stats wrong. The stat usually presented is that one in three women are sexually abused sometime in their life times. That doesn`t mean a few guys are doing all the crimes.That means that at least once,one out of three woman have been victimized, in some way. Considering that nearly half of all attacks are not reported,many committed by family members or significant others,the 1 in 3 stats seems very possible.

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