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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 10:54:51 AM

erieangel

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Ideal society...

One in which no child goes to bed hungry. No person is left bankrupt due to illness or disease. The elderly are held in high regard for their experiences. Where people and ideas are important, despite race, economic standing, education and the like. One total divorced from the society which we have where money and power rule supreme.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 10:56:43 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I would like as much freedom as possible without hurting someone else.
And equal rights to start with. Education, healthcare and non profit lawyers.
Make it easier for the poor to attain capital, like owning their own house instead of paying rent till death.

Yes, and I think the things you outline above would be unobjectionable to anyone if they didn't know where they would be situated ahead of time. Only a rich person might object to making capital easier for the poor to obtain. But if you didn't know where you would be situated - I think everyone would want to have some ability to have access to capital.

Non-profit lawyers - that one I will have to ponder. I think everyone should have the right to an appropriate wage for their work, and that we should have a profit motive. How to structure that profession to profession becomes an interesting question. I think what you are alluding to is the notion that lawyers should not be paid contingency fees. Is that correct? Because I think a lawyer, like any other profession, should certainly be allowed to charge a fair wage for the hours that he has worked. But a lawyer who collects a huge windfall by taking on a case (i.e., getting a percentage of the settlement) - this is a different case. But then you have to ask yourself, would anyone take on such cases for no pay if such contingency arrangements did not exist. Contingency fees exist so that the poor can take on large corporations without having to have the money for legal fees up front. If you removed contingency fees, then I think you have to have some other mechanism in place for the poor plaintiffs. I am just thinking aloud here - I don't have a solution off the top of my head.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:03:29 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Ideal society...

One in which no child goes to bed hungry. No person is left bankrupt due to illness or disease. The elderly are held in high regard for their experiences. Where people and ideas are important, despite race, economic standing, education and the like. One total divorced from the society which we have where money and power rule supreme.

I like this image. This is a society I would be happy to be born into. One where I wouldn't have to worry about whether I was born to rich parents. Whether I was completely healthy and able. Whether I was black or white, etc.

I think then, the work is simply in trying to think about what specific policies would enable such a society? If we agree that no child should go to bed hungry, I think it ends the debate on whether welfare payments of some sort should exist or not. We can argue about who is eligible. Or how much. But I think the debate about whether we are responsible for paying or not becomes moot if we all agree from the outset that no child should go to bed hungry. I think certain collective responsibilities are a necessary and unavoidable feature of modern societies if we want them to be at all fair.

When I read your vision and look at the proposals of some politicians today, it makes it easy for me to determine what policies to reject and what policies to say, "hey, yes, this supports my vision".

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:04:49 AM

MrBukani

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Lawyers like doctors should be on the payroll of the state. I say this cause as long as we can pay for expensive lawyers there will always be injustice. Cause I can afford a better lawyer then you perhaps.
I dont really care how much they make.
A cop can save your life too. But he gets shitty pay.
So what will define how much something is worth.
Off course doctors and lawyers have a big responsibility and extensive studies. So they are allowed to make a lotta money.
But if they operate in the commercial scheme.
There will always be injustice in court and hospitals.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:15:29 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Lawyers like doctors should be on the payroll of the state. I say this cause as long as we can pay for expensive lawyers there will always be injustice. Cause I can afford a better lawyer then you perhaps.
I dont really care how much they make.
A cop can save your life too. But he gets shitty pay.
So what will define how much something is worth.
Off course doctors and lawyers have a big responsibility and extensive studies. So they are allowed to make a lotta money.
But if they operate in the commercial scheme.
There will always be injustice in court and hospitals.

Yes, so this requires, again, thinking in original position terms. I.e., to create a fair society and have equal access means certain things have to have a equal playing field. So legal representation would then fall under that. I understand what you're getting at.

I do like the idea of society valuing what is important, and trying to pay people according to the importance of the job, not just what people are willing to pay for it. So yes, doctors, teachers, police probably all should be paid more. Society does not value them enough. Meanwhile when I compare what people in sports and entertainment make, it seems hugely disproportionate to me. I don't discount the value that entertainment has in our lives. But that people in those professions should make so much, while doctors and teachers make so little in comparison, seems wrong to me.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:20:29 AM

SLVPropertyOwner

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Isn't that what Obama and Obamacare is all about? Turing this country into a socialistic system where there is total equality?

BTW, please get it right.... WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY!!! ADEMOCRACY IS BASED UPON MOB RULE AND NOT EQUAL REPRESENTATION. WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT (OR SUPPOSED TO... NO ASSOCIATION TO THE POLITICQL GROUP). A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT IS EQUAL REPRESENTATION AND CANNOT BE CONTROLLED BY ANY GROUP OR CALASS LIKE A DEMOCRACY FORM OF GOVERNMENT. GOOGLE IT, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:21:52 AM

erieangel

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Actually, we have democratic republic if you want to technical.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:23:19 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLVPropertyOwner
ADEMOCRACY IS BASED UPON MOB RULE AND NOT EQUAL REPRESENTATION.

Less than a sixth of the population of Athens in the bronze age is hardly a mob: there was a bigger turnout for the riots in London last year.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:33:33 AM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SLVPropertyOwner

Isn't that what Obama and Obamacare is all about? Turing this country into a socialistic system where there is total equality?

BTW, please get it right.... WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY!!! ADEMOCRACY IS BASED UPON MOB RULE AND NOT EQUAL REPRESENTATION. WE HAVE A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT (OR SUPPOSED TO... NO ASSOCIATION TO THE POLITICQL GROUP). A REPUBLICAN FORM OF GOVERNMENT IS EQUAL REPRESENTATION AND CANNOT BE CONTROLLED BY ANY GROUP OR CALASS LIKE A DEMOCRACY FORM OF GOVERNMENT. GOOGLE IT, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

We have a representative democracy. We are still considered a democracy as the term is used in politics. A representative democracy would fall within the large group of democracies.

I'm not sure the ancient Greeks would agree with your determination that democracy is based on mob rule.

We are a republican government with division of powers between federal and state/local jurisdictions.

If our country is as you describe - "cannot be controlled by any group or class" then why did we just go through the Occupy Wall Street movement. Why are people upset about the 1%. Or are you saying that the 99% is wrong? That wealth and power in this country do not mean anything?

Do you really believe that particular groups in the U.S. do not have undue influence over politics? Really? You can put whatever label you want on the type of government that we currently have. But to say that certain groups don't have more power than others is to be living in some kind of denial about what you see happening around you. Maybe it is you who should open your eyes to what is currently happening not just here, but in the world in general.....

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 1:10:25 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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Elimination of the Liberal Vermin (DemocRATS) in November 2012 will be a good start.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 10:57:02 PM

Real0ne

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right where I am today and have been most of my life.

The lowest common denominator is "law" and "equity", which mean do no injury to person or property, and "real" having first precedence and always and forever over and trumping the necessary evil of "abstract". Its the only way people can actually "enjoy" freedom. (as in released from, not freedom the franchise version we have now)

that would reduce the legal system from 60 million laws to one handy book you could carry around.

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RE: Your Ideal Society - 3/11/2012 11:37:30 PM

tj444

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imo, an equal and just society,.. one with little govt, only what is needed.. and freedom (real freedom, not what gets passed off as freedom in the US)..

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