RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea...

RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 3:03:25 PM)
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Edwynn -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 4:16:42 PM)
~FR~ As I say to those defending the final response of Zimmerman; If you do not like the presumption of knowing what actually happened in the heat of the moment by those accusing Zimmerman (which is in fact not the case in every instance), then quit your own presumption of knowing what actually happened which is the only possible basis for your defending him.

erieangel -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 7:09:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn ~FR~ As I say to those defending the final response of Zimmerman; If you do not like the presumption of knowing what actually happened in the heat of the moment by those accusing Zimmerman (which is in fact not the case in every instance), then quit your own presumption of knowing what actually happened which is the only possible basis for your defending him. I know this much: 1. Kid is walking down the street. 2. A man sees him, calls the police because he thinks the kid "looks" suspicious and later shoots and kills the kid. Those two facts alone tell me vigilante justice and the man should be arrested and charged with murder. Last I knew, vigilante justice was illegal in most states.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 7:16:32 PM)
Manslaughter -- Let's give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt that he didn't cold-bloodedly premeditate the stalking and murder of Treyvon Martin...

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:09:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what the guy with the gun claimed after he murdered the kid, yes. Of course, that doesn't meet the standard of the Law, where since he was the aggressor, he had the duty to retreat. And according to him, the kid was the aggressor. As we've previously stated the mere act of walking behind someone is not an aggressive act. (If it were, there'd be millions of people in New York called "aggressors" due to the high pedestrian traffic and the fact that you're almost always walking behind someone.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:22:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Just like the whole 'following is pursuing and pursuing is following' bit; His girlfriend states she told him to run away from Mr. Zimmerman. If he wasn't on the phone at the time, how could the girlfriend know that Mr. Martin was sensing trouble? Telepathy maybe? One can see that the time the phone goes dead (celltowers dont lie on that kind of information), is well within the time frame Mr. Zimmerman states he was following Mr. Martin on foot AFTER getting out of his car. Simple. After a week and a half of hearing the police say they had nothing to make them dispute the claim of self-defense "suddenly" she remembers a phone call that wow occurred right at that time....and she waited a week to mention this. Strange. By the way, I fixed the typo in your post. I highlighted it in red...since I know you like that. If you listen to the RECORDING of Zimmerman's call, the dispatched asked very plainly "are you following him?" Zimmerman then indicates that yes, he was following Martin. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Who says Mr. Martin inflicted any of those wounds? Oh yeah, the guy who pulled the trigger, and stated its all 'self defense'! Hey I didn't say it was right. What I did say (and have said all along) was that absent any evidence to the contrary, the cops can't just point and go "liar liar pants on fire." That schtick never works in court. That whole reasonable doubt thing can be a bitch. It's why I have always been a proponent of having cameras everywhere. If this gated community had security cams, we might have irrefutable proof that Zimmerman was lying. However, since we don't have that proof, all we have is a claim of self-defense and a shit ton of that lovely "reasonable doubt." quote: ORIGINAL: joether Yeah, its not self defense if you actively pursue/follow someone AFTER the police tell you to not do so. Again, the cops themselves have come out and said he was under no legal obligation to obey that. Furthermore, the simple act of following happens all day every day to a variety of people. Even cops follow without pursuing sometimes. You seem them all the time. They'll stay behind someone, see if they make a mistake...run their plates, etc. If the person's clean, they move on out of boredom. Doesn't make them "aggressive" to the driver they are following. Hell, I've followed drunk drivers on the freeway while on the phone with the cops before. Doesn't mean I was being aggressive to them. I was just keeping them in sight so I could better direct the cop to their car. Guess what...I've gotten into "physical confrontations" with exactly zero of the drunks I've followed. Why? Because my act of following them is not an aggressive act. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Further, its not self defense when you possess superior firepower on an unarmed target. Now who's talking telepathy? On a dark rainy night, Zimmerman...who's involved now in a fight with someone who's kicking his ass...is supposed to know he's not armed. I'd like him to tell me the lottery numbers for Friday if he could tell that. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Finally its not self defense when you go after someone that is black AFTER stating to the police that 'his kind always gets away' (paraphrasing). That has nothing to do with anything. If I called the cops for one of the drunks I followed and gave a description of their car, it doesn't make me any more or less aggressive if I keep following them so they "don't get away." quote: ORIGINAL: joether Anyone could argue that your judgement was bias, flawed, and uncredible. Further, previous history of making calls to the police show signs of paranoia and delusions, doesnt exactly help the whole 'self defense' arguement. Ahhhh so now you want to talk delusions. Delusions commonly mean some sort of psychosis. So we now go from self-defense to diminished capacity. Either way, the guy gets off. Ain't our justice system grand? This is why we have stand your ground laws. Because often times, even if the suspect is arrested for murdering an entire family in their home, he'll either get off or get a slap on the wrist in a nuthouse.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:23:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether You take pleasure, enjoyment, and/or humor from the idea that a 17 year old kid lost his life by a pistol shooting guy whose story doesnt really check out? Nope. Never said I did. My stance from the beginning was one of pointing out how, without contrary evidence, the guy has to be assumed to be defending himself. I said I was amused that it took a week and a half for some alleged "evidence" to come out. Because it would be just unthinkable for someone to try and "manufacture" evidence in order to affect their desired outcome. That never happens....right?

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:28:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Doesn't say much for the Paul Blart wannabe does it? Nope. Just says he's the type to bite off more than he can chew. That's one of the reasons I don't yet carry. I took the class and got qualified. Then, in my lengthy search for "the right gun" for me, I realized I've been qualified to carry for 4 years and still haven't. Because I don't need one. I figure that just helps out my defense should I ever get into a deadly altercation. Someone puts a gun in my face...I'm going to make them use it. If they hesitate, they'll be shot with their own gun. Either way, one or both of us will sustain potentially fatal injuries. But no matter the outcome, they will think twice before doing it again....assuming they survive. And if it's me that doesn't survive.....fuck it. Not like I can bitch about it if I'm dead.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam If Martin wasn't a martial arts expert, how did he force Zimmerman out of the car. Force him down the street and into someone's back yard , bloody his nose, cut his head and give him an all round ass whoopin to the point where Zimmerman feared for his life and had to draw and fire while chatting with his GF on the cell phone? Exactly. The girlfriends story just doesn't add up does it? Telling him to run, then admitting he didn't. Like I said before...if someone's coming after him with a gun and he chooses not to run, Zimmerman was right to be afraid. Martin was clearly crazy.....or the girlfriend is lying through her teeth in her haste to fabricate evidence.

DarqueMirror -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 10:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 He was chased by a guy with a gun..........into the back yard......sorry mate,....that`s not trespassing. WTF is wrong w/ you? To be chased, one must be running away. The girlfriend who supposedly was on the phone with him stated he refused to run. Must have been the slowest "chase" in history.

4u2spoil -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 11:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror And yet he still managed to bloody the nose and head of a guy with nearly 100 lbs over him. Even if this teen (enough of a distinction from 'kid' for you?) was a professionally trained fighter who somehow managed to overcome the weight difference and land a blow, there's no evidence that it wasn't because HE feared for his safety. Since skittles aren't as effective a weapon as a gun, he couldn't shoot Zimmerman, but perhaps he sees some hulking oaf following him, doesn't know what his intentions are and is trying to protect himself by disabling the guy long enough to get away. The amount of mental gymnastics you're going through on this thread to try to support Zimmerman's bullshit claim of feeling threatened is amazing. Considering the numbnuts on this particular police force didn't bother to do any kind of tests, the blood on Zimmerman's head could have been transferred there after he shot the boy, he could have tripped and hit his head - there are any number of ways he could have gotten blood on his head, and no one will ever know because the police didn't bother to even investigate this case to include or exclude any of the things Zimmerman told them. It stinks to high heaven that this guy's claims haven't at least been properly investigated.

4u2spoil -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 11:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Still two sets of laws in this country. A set for white people and a set for everyone else. George Zimmerman is a Hispanic, right up there with Blacks and Jews as far as the average Anglo racist is concerned. But thanks anyway. K. You do realize "Hispanic" isn't actually a race, and that there are White Hispanics, Black Hispanics, Asian Hispanics, Mixed Race Hispanics, etc? No, pretty sure you didn't, but now you know.

4u2spoil -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/21/2012 11:54:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what the guy with the gun claimed after he murdered the kid, yes. Of course, that doesn't meet the standard of the Law, where since he was the aggressor, he had the duty to retreat. And according to him, the kid was the aggressor. As we've previously stated the mere act of walking behind someone is not an aggressive act. (If it were, there'd be millions of people in New York called "aggressors" due to the high pedestrian traffic and the fact that you're almost always walking behind someone. You're contradicting yourself. In an earlier post you mentioned feeling threatened when someone ran up to you in an isolated environment. If you were on the beach during the day and someone went jogging by, I doubt you'd feel threatened. If you're a 140lb kid - even a super ninja 140lb kid - seemingly alone in an unfamiliar environment (that you have every right to be in) and a much bigger guy who you don't know is approaching you, I don't know how you can say with a straight face that someone couldn't possibly perceive that as aggressive behavior.

4u2spoil -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 12:11:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Simple. After a week and a half of hearing the police say they had nothing to make them dispute the claim of self-defense "suddenly" she remembers a phone call that wow occurred right at that time....and she waited a week to mention this. Strange. Who's to say she didn't bring it up earlier, or that she knew what Zimmerman's claims were prior to offering evidence to refute them? quote: Hey I didn't say it was right. What I did say (and have said all along) was that absent any evidence to the contrary, the cops can't just point and go "liar liar pants on fire." That schtick never works in court. That whole reasonable doubt thing can be a bitch. It's why I have always been a proponent of having cameras everywhere. If this gated community had security cams, we might have irrefutable proof that Zimmerman was lying. However, since we don't have that proof, all we have is a claim of self-defense and a shit ton of that lovely "reasonable doubt." Sigh. That's part of the problem with your continued insistence that "no one knows for sure" in the face of evidence to the contrary. Had the police actually done their jobs and opened an investigation, where they collected evidence that could be tested and used to support Zimmerman's version of events, I might give you half a point. The fact that no one even bothered to collect evidence is part of the problem. Reasonable doubt shouldn't be created because the police are incompetent and don't bother to do their jobs. quote: Guess what...I've gotten into "physical confrontations" with exactly zero of the drunks I've followed. Why? Because my act of following them is not an aggressive act. No, it's because as stupid as some of your reasoning is, you weren't stupid enough to get out of your car, approach the person once they got out of their car and start mouthing off about what you thought of their driving. quote: Now who's talking telepathy? On a dark rainy night, Zimmerman...who's involved now in a fight that he started with someone who's kicking his ass possibly trying to defend himself against a 100lb heavier opponent who came out of nowhere and didn't identify himself...is supposed to know he's not armed, though any person with an IQ over 70 who was truly fearful for their safety would probably not follow or engage with someone who seemed suspicious, who might be a threat to their life. Fixed that for you.

4u2spoil -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 12:18:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam If Martin wasn't a martial arts expert, how did he force Zimmerman out of the car. Force him down the street and into someone's back yard , bloody his nose, cut his head and give him an all round ass whoopin to the point where Zimmerman feared for his life and had to draw and fire while chatting with his GF on the cell phone? Exactly. The girlfriends story just doesn't add up does it? Telling him to run, then admitting he didn't. Like I said before...if someone's coming after him with a gun and he chooses not to run, Zimmerman was right to be afraid. Martin was clearly crazy.....or the girlfriend is lying through her teeth in her haste to fabricate evidence. I'm pretty sure there's a sarcasm tag you're missing here, but a lot of things seem to go over your head. And now this ninja football playing thug life monster is crazy because he doesn't move fast enough? Someone on an earlier post mentioned that showing fear with truly crazy people - I'd put zimmerman in that category before Martin - is one of the worst things you can do. If you keep calm, there's a better chance that they calm down and the situation doesn't escalate. Plus, since he was already suspicious for walking while black, I'm pretty sure Zimmerman would have taken him running while black to be an obvious sign that he was "up to no good." There are phone records to support the girlfriend, witnesses have started to come out to state that the police encouraged them to change their stories, or coached them heavily on what to say.

Kirata -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 12:57:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil No, pretty sure you didn't, but now you know. Well actually, thanks to your post, there is something I know now. But it ain't what you think. K.

Kirata -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 1:05:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 4u2spoil witnesses have started to come out to state that the police encouraged them to change their stories, or coached them heavily on what to say. Speaking of witnesses, here's another one: Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling." Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account. Reference: Orlando Sentinel Just trying for balance... was that helpful? K.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 4:20:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle That's what the guy with the gun claimed after he murdered the kid, yes. Of course, that doesn't meet the standard of the Law, where since he was the aggressor, he had the duty to retreat. And according to him, the kid was the aggressor. As we've previously stated the mere act of walking behind someone is not an aggressive act. (If it were, there'd be millions of people in New York called "aggressors" due to the high pedestrian traffic and the fact that you're almost always walking behind someone. Would a reasonable person having called 9-1-1 and knowing the police were responding, exit the safety of their car, and pursue someone whom they thought could be dangerous? Once Zimmerman went off the rails of what any reasonable and prudent person would do, the liability for his negligence is his own. "We tell our children not to talk to strangers. We tell them to look out for people following them. We tell them to run away if someone tells them to come with them. We tell them to fight back if people try to grab them. Do you think it should be legal for someone to shoot and kill your children if they follow that advice?"

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 4:23:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: joether You take pleasure, enjoyment, and/or humor from the idea that a 17 year old kid lost his life by a pistol shooting guy whose story doesnt really check out? Nope. Never said I did. My stance from the beginning was one of pointing out how, without contrary evidence, Except you're going out of your way to ignore: 1) The actual law about culpability. 2) The actual known and established facts. For example: quote: Simple. After a week and a half of hearing the police say they had nothing to make them dispute the claim of self-defense "suddenly" she remembers a phone call that wow occurred right at that time Fucking T-Mobile has billing records for all calls, which has already been verified. See, you can't be all, "I'm just being fair", when you're ignoring the Law, and the Facts. You're not being fair. You're grasping for reasons to blame an innocent kid for being shot dead by -- to be kind -- a nut.

farglebargle -> RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... (3/22/2012 4:26:00 AM)
quote: Police said they twice tried to interview her without success Given the Sanford PD is arguably part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice on a RICO level, can you understand people's reticence to confide in them? I'm sure once the FBI starts taking depositions, and reconciling all the claims, we'll have a nice clear record.

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