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"No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 9:40:42 AM   
tweakabelle


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In an interview with Haaretz, Israeli Defence Force Chief of Staff Benny Ganz states that Iran does not possess nuclear weapons, nor are the Iranians planning on building nuclear weapons.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-chief-to-haaretz-i-do-not-believe-iran-will-decide-to-develop-nuclear-weapons-1.426389

Ganz statement contradicts the strident claims of Israeli PM Netanyahu, who has long insisted that the Iranians are pursuing nuclear weapons capacity. Ganz position agrees with the US Defence and Intelligence communities both of which have stated they don't believe Iranians are seeking nuclear weapons either.

In a prescient analysis of the import of Ganz' remarks, UK newspaper "The Guardian" comments:
"Gantz's remarks come in the run-up to the planned May 23 talks in Baghdad, when Iran and the international community are expected to start talking about possible compromises to defuse the Iranian crisis. In a way that process, begun this month in Istanbul, is a means for the US and its partners to find enough common ground with Iran to forestall an Israeli attack. It now looks like Bibi's top general has publicly joined that effort." (emphasis added)
The full article, well worth a read, is available here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian-borger-global-security-blog/2012/apr/25/israel-iran?newsfeed=true


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 10:06:45 AM   
MrBukani


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The Dutch Origins of the Iranian Nuclear Bomb

You can blame us if you like.
I would follow the internet trail and you will find some disturbing news.
The following is a short extraction of the article.

"However, what few people know is that Khan received help from a Dutchman after he stole Urenco’s nuclear secrets.
That Dutchman was Henk Sleebos, a Dutch engineer and an expert on uranium enrichment and exploding bridge wire detonators (EBW’s): a detonator described for use in a nuclear device.
Sleebos set up a giant network of European companies which illegally provided Khan with al sorts of parts, materials and know-how for the production of a nuclear weapon.
Sleebos also helped Khan in Pakistan with the development of the Pakistani nuclear bomb."

israeli source

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 11:03:50 AM   
tweakabelle


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I checked your link but was unable to find anything to prove the existence of Iranian nuclear weapons in it. Or any credible evidence to even suggest the existence of Iranian nuclear weapons either. I did see lots of wild unsubstantiated claims. The argument seems to be that Sleebos helped Khan set up the Pakistani nuclear bomb. For some unstated reason, this is taken to mean he is going to do the same with Iranians. That and some false interpretations of a single IAEA report constitutes the sum total of evidence to support these claims. All this is published on a site that makes no pretence to be objective either - it is openly pro-Israeli. If you find such threadbare offerings persuasive good luck to you.

All US intelligence agencies, the US defence Secretary Panetta, ex-Mossad chief Dragan and now the IDF Chief of Staff are now stating openly that Iran does not possess nuclear weapons and isn't seeking to build them. One would think this collection of people better informed on the issue. The Iranians deny it and their Supreme Religious Leader has issued a fatwa declaring possessing or developing nuclear weapons forbidden under Islam.

While Western attention is diverted towards Iran, Israel virtually daily announces expansion of its colonies on the West Bank. Yesterday it announced three NEW colonies. So the theft of the West Bank continues on an ever-increasing scale.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-declares-west-bank-settlement-outposts-legal-20120425-1xlgj.html

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/25/2012 11:20:43 AM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 11:19:35 AM   
Anaxagoras


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Tweak in her obsessive need to bash Israel has yet again uttely misrepresented what was said by Gantz in the article, and whitewashes the rather more complex US position as a lot of pro-Palestinians did when they misrepresented what Panetta said late last year. Gantz stated the risk against Israel from Iran was real but that pressure on Iran was bearing fruit. Essentially he was calling for hope and for calm:

quote:

"If Iran goes nuclear it will have negative dimensions for the world, for the region, for the freedom of action Iran will permit itself," Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz told Haaretz in an Independence Day interview.

That freedom of action might be expressed "against us, via the force Iran will project toward its clients: Hezbollah in Lebanon, Islamic Jihad in Gaza. And there's also the potential for an existential threat. If they have a bomb, we are the only country in the world that someone calls for its destruction and also builds devices with which to bomb us. But despair not. We are a temperate state. The State of Israel is the strongest in the region and will remain so. Decisions can and must be made carefully, out of historic responsibility but without hysteria," Gantz said.

Asked whether 2012 is also decisive for Iran, Gantz shies from the term. "Clearly, the more the Iranians progress the worse the situation is. This is a critical year, but not necessarily 'go, no-go.' The problem doesn't necessarily stop on December 31, 2012. We're in a period when something must happen: Either Iran takes its nuclear program to a civilian footing only or the world, perhaps we too, will have to do something. We're closer to the end of the discussions than the middle."

Gantz says the international pressure on Iran, in the form of diplomatic and economic sanctions, is beginning to bear fruit. "I also expect that someone is building operational tools of some sort, just in case. The military option is the last chronologically but the first in terms of its credibility. If it's not credible it has no meaning. We are preparing for it in a credible manner. That's my job, as a military man."



No one claims Iran has a nuclear bomb already so that’s yet another total strawman. The November 2011 IAEA report that led in part to the current impasse clearly states Iran is very likely developing technology incompatible with peaceful civilian usage as was was widely reported in the media at the time.

The report expressed strong concerns about the military dimension of Iran’s nuclear ambitions in http://iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2011/gov2011-65.pdf section G. Part 41. It said there are indications of the development of weapon technology. In part 42 it says the information is credible as it came from many sources over a number of years. Part 43 states there is evidence of the development of indigenous nuclear weapons technology. Part 44 states the technology had specific military dimension.

The conclusion reaffirms the serious concerns, e.g. Part 53 “The Agency has serious concerns regarding possible military dimensions to Iran’s nuclear programme. After assessing carefully and critically the extensive information available to it, the Agency finds the information to be, overall, credible. The information indicates that Iran has carried out activities relevant to the development of a nuclear explosive device.” - those that defend the indefensible out of prejudice should stick that in their atomic pipe...

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/25/2012 11:28:23 AM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 11:34:30 AM   
tweakabelle


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Sorry Anax, it't not just my personal view. It is also the Guardian's and that of the analyst quoted below. Here's the Guardian piece in full:

"Israel army chief contradicts Netanyahu on Iran
General Benny Gantz thinks 'rational' Iranian leadership will not build nuclear weapons


Benny Gantz pours some cool water on fears of an Israeli military strike
The head of the Israel Defence Force (IDF) Lieutenant General Benny Gantz has made some striking remarks about Iran's nuclear ambitions in an Independence Day interview with Haaretz.
.
Basically, Gantz says that although Iran is pressing ahead with its uranium enrichment programme, he does not think Iran's top leadership, under current circumstances, would take the risk of building a nuclear weapon
. Here is the relevant quote.

If the supreme religious leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei wants, he will advance it to the acquisition of a nuclear bomb, but the decision must first be taken. It will happen if Khamenei judges that he is invulnerable to a response. I believe he would be making an enormous mistake, and I don't think he will want to go the extra mile. I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people. But I agree that such a capability, in the hands of Islamic fundamentalists who at particular moments could make different calculations, is dangerous.

This sounds very much like the analysis that has been coming from Gantz's US counterpart, General Martin Dempsey, in his efforts to restrain the Israeli government from taking military action. It sounds very unlike the sort of language that has been coming from Gantz's boss, prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, for instance in his Holocaust Memorial speech last week:

Today, the regime in Iran openly calls and determinedly works for our destruction. And it is feverishly working to develop atomic weapons to achieve that goal.

In his Haaretz interview, Gantz all but calls on Netanyahu to calm down. He says:

The state of Israel is the strongest in the region and will remain so. Decisions can and must be made carefully, out of historic responsibility but without hysteria

The Iranian-Israeli analyst, Meir Javedanfar, has this take on the blatant conflict of views:

This contradiction is a welcome development. The main reason being that it takes the hysterics out of Israel's public assessment of the Iranian nuclear program. No one in Israel wants a nuclear armed Iran. The problem is that Netanyahu's exaggerated view about the Iranian nuclear program and the holocaust which it would bring discredit many of Israel's legitimate concerns with regards to Iran.

Gantz's remarks come in the run-up to the planned May 23 talks in Baghdad, when Iran and the international community are expected to start talking about possible compromises to defuse the Iranian crisis. In a way that process, begun this month in Istanbul, is a means for the US and its partners to find enough common ground with Iran to forestall an Israeli attack. It now looks like Bibi's top general has publicly joined that effort
."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian-borger-global-security-blog/2012/apr/25/israel-iran?newsfeed=true

As is obvious from the above, your attempt to pretend these remarks are not significant is way off the mark

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/25/2012 11:38:19 AM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 12:26:15 PM   
MrBukani


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I know the source I presented is very biased, but that's not the point. I had to google through two pages to find the dutch Sleebos connection. I just call things as I percieve them.
Pakistan just fired their first long range missile yesterday as a return message to India's missile test. And I really do not think those missiles are build for conventional warheads.
And I am sure the iranians have no moral objections against nuclear weapons. North Korea was giving hard war talk yesterday as well saying they can beat the USA's ass if they please.

For me it's all a bit too much coincedence happening in the same week. If I was part of one of those three countries I would defend myself to the death. So logic tells me Iran,Pakistan and North Korea never stopped developing weapons, including nuclear. They know damn well they can never win a conventional war. But if they do have nuclear strike power, the West will think twice to invade.
Simple math to me.

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 12:56:49 PM   
mnottertail


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North Korea was giving hard war talk yesterday as well saying they can beat the USA's ass if they please.

They had better be able to keep their missles up over 30 seconds to whip our ass dont ya think?

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 1:01:04 PM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

North Korea was giving hard war talk yesterday as well saying they can beat the USA's ass if they please.

They had better be able to keep their missles up over 30 seconds to whip our ass dont ya think?

True I didnt follow the korean tests, I do think the pakistani test was succesfull with their 3000 km range new missile what I heard on the news.
And I am just saying what korean was claiming. Doesnt really matter if their missile works yet. It's connecting the dots I am doing here. What do people need long range missiles for?

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/25/2012 1:02:17 PM >

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 2:52:39 PM   
kdsub


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We must not have read the same article...he said nothing like what your header says and implies...You are so prejudiced you are putting words in the mouths of the Israelis even when the article you link to clearly says otherwise.

I do feel for you...it must hurt to hate so deeply.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/25/2012 2:54:14 PM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 3:46:03 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
I know the source I presented is very biased, but that's not the point.

The Guardian has issues too - there is a high profile website dedicated to calling it out. They were actually selling a book in their online bookstore by a high profile Holocaust denier http://cifwatch.com/2012/03/05/the-guardian-places-gilad-atzmons-book-back-on-its-shelves/ last year. They feature articles by Hamas, knowlingly incited violence against Abbas when they published a cartoon of him dressed as a Jew with an uzi during the Palestine Papers fiasco etc. so its kinda hard to take seriously what they say on the issue anymore.

quote:


Pakistan just fired their first long range missile yesterday as a return message to India's missile test. And I really do not think those missiles are build for conventional warheads.
And I am sure the iranians have no moral objections against nuclear weapons. North Korea was giving hard war talk yesterday as well saying they can beat the USA's ass if they please.

For me it's all a bit too much coincedence happening in the same week.

Interesting hypothesis. Its strange how people play fast and loose with the potential loss of the lives of millions, and it won't only be Jews that face the threat of annihilation either. Numerous other countries such as Sunni Saudi Arabia are terrified of Iran, hence they are allowing Israel use their airspace. Iran developing nuclear weapons will lead to a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. It has the potential to be far more devastating than the situation between the US and USSR due to severe political instability and religious fanaticism.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/25/2012 4:13:17 PM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 3:48:36 PM   
kalikshama


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There's been so much talk about Netanyahu et al and election year rhetoric that it made the Daily Show:

http://gawker.com/5891164/jon-stewart-breaks-down-the-war-rhetoric-of-israel-iran-and-the-us

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 4:03:04 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
We must not have read the same article...he said nothing like what your header says and implies...You are so prejudiced you are putting words in the mouths of the Israelis even when the article you link to clearly says otherwise.

The claim was that Iran does not possess nuclear weapons, and is not intending to build them either. The former point is a given since no one for or against some intervention to destroy Iran's facilities believes they have them already so it's a strawman. Gantz says no where in the article that Iran does not intend to build them contrary to the OP. He just says that he believes Khomenei probably wouldn't risk it without some insurance against the consequences of a backlash. That's not really news, because other commentators have stated the same, and it is the reason many suspect Khomenei stopped development after Bush went into Iraq. Gantz also points to making a military response a credible alternative, and said "And there's also the potential for an existential threat. If they have a bomb, we are the only country in the world that someone calls for its destruction..."

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/25/2012 4:16:39 PM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 8:29:39 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We must not have read the same article...he said nothing like what your header says and implies...

Butch

The first sentence I wrote was: " Benny Ganz states that Iran does not possess nuclear weapons, nor are the Iranians planning on building nuclear weapons."

Everyone agrees that the Iranians do not currently posses nuclear weapons. So the only possible contestable claim there is whether Ganz said the Iranians are not planning on building one. Ganz words in Haaretz are:" [Iran] is going step by step to the place where it will be able to decide whether to manufacture a nuclear bomb. It hasn't yet decided whether to go the extra mile."

Haaretz reported the story under the headline: "IDF chief to Haaretz: I do not believe Iran will decide to develop nuclear weapons." which clearly supports my account of Ganz' words

As Ganz clearly states that there has been no decision to manufacture a nuclear weapon, and he specifically rejects suggestions that the Iranians are going to take such a decision in the future, is it accurate to report him as saying "nor are the Iranians planning on building nuclear weapons."

Additionally, the line I adopted in my post is consistent with the way the story has been reported in today's electronic and print media here and in the international media (see my previous post of the Guardian article).

I have no idea how you arrived at your ridiculous claim. It's sad that you seem unable to comprehend simple English. It's even sadder that you appear to have no way of understanding another point of view on international affairs other than to ascribe hate to the other person. To help you out, here are two reasons to motivate objections to Israel's 45 year old Occupation of another people's country;
The Israeli Occupation forces have killed almost 1400 Palestinian children since 2000; and Israel routinely arrests, abuses, imprisons and tortures, yes tortures Palestinian children in the West Bank. On their own, these are perfectly adequate reasons to object passionately to Israel's ongoing occupation and theft of another people's country. (There are a whole lot more if needed)

While it can't be pleasant for you to discover that Netanyahu has been lying through his teeth (again) while trying to manipulate your country into a war on Israel's behalf, if you can't see that .... you need to make an appointment with your optometrist. Until you get your vision broadened, or your powers of comprehension increased to something approaching average, you are back on ignore.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-chief-to-haaretz-i-do-not-believe-iran-will-decide-to-develop-nuclear-weapons-1.426389

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/25/2012 8:58:38 PM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/25/2012 8:45:53 PM   
Anaxagoras


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FR: forgot to add that it sounds like Gantz actually says "I do not believe Iran will decide to develop nuclear weapons.", as featured in the headline "IDF chief to Haaretz: I do not believe Iran will decide to develop nuclear weapons" but there are no quotation marks and nowhere in the article is Gantz quoted as actually saying it. Weird but Haaretz have featured its share of odd headlines in the past. Recently the editor was explaining in an interview why he pushed the story of the Fogel family funeral, which was attended by tens of thousands last year, off the front page in preference for a story about birds migrating! lol

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 12:55:04 AM   
SoftBonds


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If Israel would stop building settlements in territory that doesn't belong to it, it could reduce tensions and make it less politically palatable for Iran or Arab nations to build nuclear weapons. Just sayin...
(of course, the whole pushing people out to make more room for your race was done once before, in Europe, can't remember the guy's name, but it started with an "H," German fella, anyone know who?)

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 2:41:44 AM   
MrBukani


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I agree, it's a shame though everybody always points towards the jews and nobody is bothered about the Kurds, not having their own land wich they have just as much right to. But since the media dont give a flaming fuck about the Kurds we do not either it seems.

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 7:41:49 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

If Israel would stop building settlements in territory that doesn't belong to it


Now this I agree with...I see no benefit to anyone to expand these settlements or add new ones.

Butch

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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 7:51:40 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

"nor are the Iranians planning on building nuclear weapons."


Show me my dear where he said this...not what you think he means or what Haatetz published as a headline but his actual words.

You can't and we both know it...He was very specific in his words and meanings and they do not say Iran is not planning to produce weapons.

PS… lol… I knew you could not resist taking me off ignore to see what I was saying.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/26/2012 7:52:35 AM >


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 8:49:47 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

If Israel would stop building settlements in territory that doesn't belong to it


Now this I agree with...I see no benefit to anyone to expand these settlements or add new ones.

Israel hasn't built any new settlements since 1994 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704259304575043101789714506.html#project%3DSETTLERS0110%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive around the time of Oslo II, and frequently removes illegal outposts. The settlements only constitute two to three percent of the West Bank, and are used pretty much to stop talks. When Bibi agreed to a ten month construction freeze that elapsed without any real movement by the Palestinians before they again demanded it be in place again before talking, George Mitchell said "What had been less than worthless a few months earlier became indispensable to continue negotiations." http://freepressonline.com/main.asp?SectionID=52&SubSectionID=78&ArticleID=16257


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RE: "No Iranian Nuke" IDF Chief confirms - 4/26/2012 9:07:08 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Israel hasn't built any new settlements since 1994 around the time of Oslo II, and frequently removes illegal outposts. The settlements only constitute two to three percent of the West Bank...

Israeli settlements: Where, when, and why they're built

September 15, 2009: According to figures from Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics and the Foundation for Middle East Peace (FMEP) in Washington, the settler population in the West Bank and Gaza has increased three times faster, on average, than the population within Israel proper since the 1993 Oslo peace accords were signed. Last year, the growth rate was 4.9 percent in the West Bank compared with 1.8 percent in Israel.

Israeli settlement building picks up where it left off

October 6, 2010: Several hundred building projects have been started since Israel allowed its freeze on settlement construction to expire on Sept. 26, according to settlement leaders. An investigation by the Hebrew daily newspaper Haaretz revealed that construction has begun on more than 350 new housing units — including 54 in Ariel, 56 in Kedumim and 56 in Karmei Tzur. The settlements of Adam, Kiryat Arba, Nariya and Mattiyahu all were listed as having from 20 to 30 new buildings each.

K.

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